dalekboy: (Existential Threat)
dalekboy ([personal profile] dalekboy) wrote2007-07-26 11:58 am

100 Days of Love and Hate - Day 67

Fandom's Fatness

This is something I was going to write about ages back, and have now been prompted to by this interesting piece from New Scientist about how if your friends are overweight, it may increase the chances that you'll end up being overweight.

I've certainly noted a number of people who were in the ordinary weight range when they joined fandom, only to have packed on the pounds within a few years. Stop and think about it for a moment - how many people have you known that, once they joined active fandom, put on a fairly noticeable amount of weight?

There is a social acceptance of fatness in fandom. In fact, people will argue for their right to be overweight. They will loudly proclaim their excuses - "I've always had weight problems," "I can't exercise," "Nothing works," and of course "I'm just big." And there will be many people who will support these statements. That some of these reasons are true, I have no doubt. However, many are simply excuses for not getting off their arses. It's easier to whine, make excuses and do nothing - to stay the victim - than it is to work hard to achieve change. If fitness and weight-loss were easy, most people would lean and healthy.

Now fans are a subculture built of people who haven't fitted in, so we generally tend to be very forgiving and supportive of all but the most extreme behaviour. The problem is, we're also supportive of bad, rude, and unhealthy behaviour. In most cultures it's considered the height of rudeness to publically correct someone, in fandom people are aching to be first to shout out at a panelist's minor error of wording.

That's one example. I've seen people be very supportive of their friends trying to lose weight and/or get fit. The problem tends to be that many people are actually more supportive of failure. Someone trying to get fit or healthy fails, and there are a multitude of people helping them come up with the excuses. Not only that, but a lot of the attitude is "Well you've failed now, so there's no point to starting again, is there?"

I've seen people saying to their friends who have announced they're going on a diet, "Why bother?" More commonly the reaction is to explain to the diet-er how diets "don't work for me." That's fine they don't work for you... how is this relevant to someone else trying to lose weight, other than to make you feel better about yourself? Oh, and of course there is the regular, "You don't need to lose weight."

I've watched people who are on diets pushed by their friends to eat junk food. A lot of this sort of unintentional sabotage goes on in fandom. People are essentially selfish and thoughtless, they want the extra Timtams but feel guilty eating them because they know they shouldn't, so they push their friends to eat them too. If eating with friends is a shared experience, eating crap in fandom is the same thing cubed - no one should be left out because then someone else may feel a bit like a pig - so we will push everyone to join us at the McDonald's Memorial McTrough.

Yes, I'm talking in harsh generalisations. But fandom is a community and that is both its strength and weakness. Communities have ingrained ideas - the same community that supports you can also hold you back. The same community also uses harsh generalisations.

One example of that is the attitude fans tend to display towards people who enjoy sports. If you like or, God forbid, participate in sports, then you have to deal with a fair amount of negativity. There are a lot of fans who are into sports who just don't mention it because they're sick of having to defend themselves. So why would you tell people you're exercising or working out to get fit when the reactions you get towards other exercise pursuits treat it as if you're doing something unpleasant?

I understand a lot of people in fandom were picked on at school, often by people who also loved sports. Or they were forced to join in on sports when they weren't very good at them. That they have a dislike of sports is not surprising. But you know, if someone's in fandom, they already like the same stuff (in a broad sense, at least), so why are their other likes being attacked? Why are they being made to feel at best uncomfortable, at worst, attacked?

You don't have to be fat to fit into the fandom community, but it helps. That's another problem. There's always someone fatter to point to so you can feel better about yourself. "Well yes, I'm overweight, but at least I'm not as fat as them!"

The cruel irony is that even as there is a push in fandom that big is always beautiful, as soon as someone comes along with a body that is reasonably lean and healthy, they become an object of lust to dozens of fans. So while many (not all) people proudly proclaim their rights and reasons for being overweight, or whine, make excuses and do nothing about it, those same people often lust after the ones who are physically fitter than many of those around them. Often their preference, if given the choice, is to go for the healthier, thinner people, while at the same time doing nothing to improve their own body.

Of course, after a few years, there's a reasonable chance that the newbie will have put on weight too. And be lusting after the thinner fans.

My Dad and his sister Gwen were both solid types, while the rest of their siblings were all outrageously thin. They all grew up in the same household, eating the same meals. Some people are naturally thin, some people are naturally rounder. But there's a difference between having a naturally heavy body, and being fat. Christina Ricci has a gorgeously Rubenesque figure that suits her frame. When she lost a lot of weight, because by Hollywood standards she was fat, I thought she looked really, really unwell.

I know a couple of women who, by most societal standards, would be considered quite overweight. Except I don't think of them that way. Their body shape is one that is clearly down to genetics. Oh they might have a few extra pounds on, but they would still be big, round girls regardless. And to me they have beautiful bodies. My stated preference has always been slender women, and that's true, but I just like a body that looks nice. A naturally curvy body does look nice. And healthy.

But most fans aren't naturally curvy or healthy. Most fans will avoid a long walk. Most fans avoid taking the nearby and obvious set of stairs and choose instead to use a lift go up or down a single level.

One of the things I simply don't don't get is this - many fans have broad and varied tastes, are very sensual and sexual people - the more weight you pack on, the more difficult sex becomes. Layers of fat build up over your pubic area making access and penetration more awkward. The extra weight means sex is physically harder, more tiring, and more limited in scope. I'm not saying that being overweight means you can't have fabulous sex, but it does reduce the scope for variation and experimentation.

Am I alone in thinking that a great and varied sex life is worth eating a bit better and going for walks?

The main reason I hate the fatness of fandom is this - it fucks up the lives of my friends. Some will go to early graves due to various related ills, others live lives that aren't all they could or should be physically or psychologically because of their issues with weight.

Fandom makes it okay to be fat, unhealthy, and unhappy because you're surrounded by people who will always support your failure to be fitter than they are.





Canberra weather

The longer I'm here, the more I like it. Seriously, the A.C.T. is a great place to live. Okay, the winter is cold, really friggin' cold. We got told by locals that the heating gets turned on on Anzac Day and turned off on Labour Day (October in Canberra) and you know, they're pretty much right.

But Canberra winters are also really lovely. For a start, the sun is out most days. Okay, it's not warm, but you can see it, feel it, and there's beautiful blue skies. So, while the lack of cloud cover helps keep things cold, it also means you have lots of lovely sunlight to enjoy. I'd rather the sunlight than the cloud cover.

And I have a love of frost, probably left over from my droving days. There's just something magical about the ground being all silver and white in the morning sunlight that I find breath-takingly lovely. We're also very near the snow, which while I've yet to go and see it, thrills me with its closeness. I've stood on the rise over the road and looked out at distant hills with snow on the peaks. That to me is kind of amazing and magical.

Now everyone goes on about Canberra's cold, they don't mention summer though. I really prefer Canberra's summer over my old Melbourne summer. Not because it's cool, it's not, it's warm and sunny. More importantly, it's consistent! In Melbourne you'll get a 34 degree day, followed by a 37, a 29, a 40, a 28, a 38, a 20(!), a 30, and finally a day that gets to 38, then has a storm with a cold (not cool) wind and the temp drops to 18.

Canberra you'll get two weeks of 30-35, a 40, a few days around 37, another couple of weeks at 35... But most of spring and summer was mid-to-high twenties/low thirties. You know what you're going to need to wear. And the lack of cloud cover helps things to cool down in the evening.

And we got way more thunderstorms in one summer than I've seen over a decade in Melbourne. And I'm a thunderstorm slut.

So yeah, all up I'm lovin' the Canberra sun, cause it's there all year 'round!

[identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 08:59 am (UTC)(link)
There's nothing gay about loving Wesley Crusher. I adore Wesley Crusher. One day I will meet Wil Wheaton and he shall call for security when I ask if I can hug him.
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[identity profile] purrdence.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 08:59 am (UTC)(link)
I went to westrek a couple of times. I remember seeing someone that looked *exactly* like Wesley Crusher...

[identity profile] logansrogue.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 09:02 am (UTC)(link)
Well, I loved Wesley Crusher too! I wrote fanfic about him going to the Academy and getting crunked at parties and getting into bar fights with his tough best girl friend (I imagined her looking like a blue-eyed Natalie Portman). Everyone teased me. They found it strange that the fifteen year old girl crushed on the character that was about her age and just as pretty. LOL!

[identity profile] logansrogue.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 09:03 am (UTC)(link)
Which is why I wanted him SOoooooo bad. *laughs*

If you ever saw a long-haired hippy girl in skirts and turtlenecks, that was me. LOL.
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[identity profile] purrdence.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 09:12 am (UTC)(link)
I think I was too distracted by the quasi-Wes...

I was there for when they showed the first Voyager. My dad's pager went off and for a moment there I thought someone was going to slap him.

I did go to Westrek south for the short time they ran it there. It was hard being a teenage fan and living in Rockingham.

[identity profile] logansrogue.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 09:22 am (UTC)(link)
I'm sure it was. I've never liked Voyager. Not something that excited me.

[identity profile] nevryn.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 09:33 am (UTC)(link)
It's less silly than you think.

You have to move around a fair bit, so you raise your heartrate, and work up a sweat, so energy is being expected. It's a low impact aerobic workout! And I'm working on improving my feet-eye coordination!

Plus, the game has a calorie counter (to be taken with a huge grain of salt, I expect)

Also expect to be a sucker for the Wii Fit board. (just a couple of strain gauges with a bluetooth chip, but still...)

[identity profile] drhoz.livejournal.com 2007-07-27 09:45 am (UTC)(link)
*looks at Purrdence* there is nothing stopping you breaking off a row and passing the rest to me, either.

Altho, admittedly, it would probably go into the fridge for later anyway *shrugs*
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[identity profile] dortamur.livejournal.com 2007-07-28 04:58 am (UTC)(link)
RE4
Excite Truck
Strikers
Zelda
Godfather
Elebits^H^H^H^Hdees

...there's quite a few good Non-Minigame Wii games.

And upcoming:
Metroid Prime
Mario Galaxy
Zak & Wiki
etc...

I think the big problem is that the Minigame genre has really taken off with the Wii, so it's drawing more attention than traditional genres. And who doesn't love Rabbids? ^_^

Heck, for all its simplicity, I still break out Wii Sports fairly regularly.

That said, I'm itching for an X360 now. Some decent games for it hitting the bargain bins, with some stellar titles on the horizon, and some of the Live integration sounds very intriguing.

[identity profile] hespa.livejournal.com 2007-07-28 06:49 am (UTC)(link)
The extra weight means sex is physically harder, more tiring, and more limited in scope.

Funnily enough, I found this little gem just yesterday.


Purrdence's post brings up an interesting point I think you miss. On the one hand, yes, I think there is a lot of support in fandom for not caring about your weight, and yes that can lead to some very physically unhealthy fans. But on the other hand, I think there's a prevalence in fandom for people with low self-esteem - as you said, we're the bunch who got picked on at school - and I imagine having the support of other fans regardless of your appearance can (potentially) improve your mental health.

Not that I can talk about losing weight (I've been lucky that way), but I have certainly been in the position of wanting to change other things that I hated about myself. What that taught me was that hating those parts of myself just made it harder to change them: the self-hating made me miserable but the misery gave me no particular impetus (or practical assistance) to change. I may be reading too much into things, but that's the vibe I got from the end of Purr's post, too.

So I just kept on doing the things I hated, and kept on being miserable about doing them. What I finally learned (with the help of one truly amazing teacher) is that, contradictory as it sounds (and I'm sorry if I can't explain it very well), but the less you worry about the "bad" aspects of yourself, the easier it is to change them. Because the more you love yourself, the easier it is to stop worrying about your "problems" and start looking for solutions. And having people around you who love you as you are can be a big part of learning to love yourself.

I know that what you're talking about crosses the line from support into "dragging down" - not just "we love you as you are" but "we love you as you are, how dare you want to change?". But I thought it was worth mentioning. There are degrees.

[identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com 2007-07-29 12:33 am (UTC)(link)
Resident Evil 4 I agree is great, but I've already played it through on the Gamecube. None of the others you mention being out already really interest me, except for Zelda which is the one game currently out I want to play.

[identity profile] babalon-93.livejournal.com 2007-07-29 05:00 am (UTC)(link)
Gosh Danny, I think you managed to score an entire bingo card in just one post. It has taken me several days to reply to this, my first reaction was disappointment and outrage, but on further reflection and reading your replies I can see that you really do have the health of your friends at heart, however, I still disagree with your approach. I totally agree that exercise and healthy eating are beneficial, but I think in this post you have confused health with weight. As it seems that your motivation here *is* genuinely the health of your friends I suggest that you would be better off adopting a "health at any size" approach, and encouraging *all* your friends to have healthy behaviours, not just those that can be physically singled out. Regular exercise and healthy eating is good for everyone – and I bet both habits are as neglected by naturally thin people as much as they are by naturally fat people, yet for some reason we see the fat as the unhealthy part of the equation rather than the habits.

I personally think that fat acceptance is a great thing, and I really don’t think that allowing fat people to have dignity and self esteem is enabling – there is plenty enough pressure out there for fat people to lose weight without being rejected by fandom as well.

I won’t bang on any more about fat acceptance, but if you are interested in what I mean by it this youtube video by Joy Nash pretty much says it all, and this heartbreaking essay is a good example of why holding fat people to a higher moral standard of health than the rest of the population is damaging and discriminatory.

P.S. The sex thing? Dude are you kidding? I, like many of your readers no doubt, have both been many different sizes and had lovers of varying sizes. Never have we failed to find any of the relevant parts nor has the fat seeped into our brains and caused a lack of imagination and a lack of variety.

[identity profile] dalekboy.livejournal.com 2007-07-29 10:55 am (UTC)(link)
Thank you for a truly wonderful reply!

health at any size
And thank you for that, what a fabulous phrasing. And I do indeed know thin folks who aren't terribly fit, while my father, who was fairly fat, smoked like a chimney and drank like a fish, was.

One of the problems with things like 100 Days is it leads to plenty of passion in the writing, but not always the best wording or arguments, especially when I'm having to fight the weird spelling errors that creep in since the stroke. Given some of the topics I've written about, I'm surprised it's taken this long for people to get flabbergasted with me. But then generally speaking, while I've had strong opinions, they've been ideas that most of my friends agreed with or at least understood my reasoning.

It's different when you hit closer to home. For a start, people miss or ignore relevant comments, such as '...I'm talking in harsh generalisations...', or when I talk about the girls I find attractive that are naturally quite sizeable and round, and no-one denied the way some folks will push a person on a diet to 'just have one.'

I'm not aiming this at you, you've obviously read carefully enough to look at where my anger and frustration has come from. You've taken the time to think about your reply and post some good links, and I thank you for taking the time read my replies.

As for the sex thing - not kidding though I suspect people aren't completely on the same page with me either. I didn't say everyone who had weight on had unsatisfactory sex lives. But I know from personal experience and from friends that the bigger you get, the more likely it is to have a negative impact. For some folks they have to be huge before it really disrupts their sex lives, for others a little extra padding is enough to cause problems, even if it's just stamina.

I have friends whose stomachs hide their genitalia, who can only have sex on their backs with their legs scissored together. They enjoy their sex life, but it certainly has reduced varity - one position that works. And they regularly fail to find the relevant parts and give up.

I've had the personal experience of having to hold a roll of fat out of the way with one friend I was working on, it was the only way there was any hope of reaching her genitals with my other hand, and then I could only just manage. She enjoyed herself, but I was limited in what I could do for her because of the logistical issues. And it was incredibly hard and tiring.

I've had a partner who wasn't hugely overweight but her size meant that penetration was sometimes nowhere near as deep as either of us would have liked. We couldn't get that close. That impacts on what can be achieved. That there are other things that can be done and ways to work around it, of course there are, and we had a great sex life. But there's no denying our options were reduced by the issue.

Friends of both genders who find that having a big backside or a large gut means that things they want to do they can't manage well. People who find that their lack of fitness combined with their weight means that if they can manage a more interesting position than normal, they don't have the stamina or ability to try for more than a few seconds.

I didn't throw the sex comment in as a vague afterthought, I talk to a lot of people and have had my share of first hand experience.

[identity profile] dalekboy.livejournal.com 2007-07-29 11:01 am (UTC)(link)
There are degrees.
Yep. The problem with trying to write a piece on a subject like this is, there are dozens of variations to deal with, each worthy of several paragraphs. Not all big people are fat. Not all fat people are unhealthy. Not all thin people are healthy. But the more you break things down, the more diluted the message can become. So hit the high points, give nods to the variations, and just try to write something that says what you need it to and holds together.

What I finally learned (with the help of one truly amazing teacher) is that, contradictory as it sounds (and I'm sorry if I can't explain it very well), but the less you worry about the "bad" aspects of yourself, the easier it is to change them.

Have you done a post about all this that I missed? If not, I wish you would :)

[identity profile] valeskah1.livejournal.com 2007-08-02 01:03 pm (UTC)(link)
I agree with you: it does become easier if you've got someone to exercise with. I lost 20kg a couple of years ago (put most of it back on but I'm working on it...) and the part that made it easier was that my next-door neighbour was doing the same eating plan and we walked the dogs together every morning, even when it was -2C and it hurt to breathe. (short walk that day).

Now I dance a few times a week plus walk the dog with a group at the local park who've come to expect me to be there. If you know there's people who are expecting you, I think it's much more likely that you'll make the effort, even if you don't really feel like it.

I'm still very overweight, even though I do more than 6 hours a week of "real" exercise. I'm working on it, but I have willpower issues. It sounds like a cop-out to many people, but I use so much willpower not partaking of the food I have intolerances to, there's not so much left for the other stuff. But I'm working on it, as I said. I find if I can manage to not buy it during the normal shopping trips, I'm okay, but if it gets home... danger!

[identity profile] mireille21.livejournal.com 2007-08-02 01:41 pm (UTC)(link)
I'm a little late to thsi debate, but I would have to agree with you that it's very much a lifestyle thing and not necessarily endemic to fandom. We are seeing a rash of obesity everywhere nowadays and I think the ratio in fandom is actually tipping back towards the societal average rather than being the exception. This is partly because whereas fandom used to be primarily misfits (who would hang out together, eat junk food, read books and watch videos), geekiness is now rather cool and fans have broader interests also.
When I look around the MSFC on a Friday night, yes there are a pocket of fatties (who often seem to get fatter and fatter by the week), but there is a far greater number of people within the normal weight range these days - me, Jon, Murray, Natalie, Louise, Damian, Ben, Peter, Ed and Ed, and so on. A few others who a little over but really just sporting a touch of middle age spread, nothing overly dramatic. Thus, on the balance i think this is a good thing, far fewer fat and unhealthy fans these days.

[identity profile] vegetus.livejournal.com 2007-08-02 11:35 pm (UTC)(link)
I just went back and read this after your other post about the reaction of people.

Wow. I agree with you so much. I *hate* the comments/looks I get for not being obese in Fandom. I hate the pressure to eat crap food (how many times has a move night involved fast food rubbish, or a convention only had softdrink and chocolate bars on sale?). I hate the fact that mentioning things about health and diet to my friends who fall into at risk groups for diabetes, heart disease, cancer etc gets me labeled as a "kooky vegan" rather than someone who doesn't want my friends to die or suffer terrible illness. I know I have done more research into diet/excercise/health than the average person as a byproduct of vegan research/interest and it saddens me that so many people I care about are at risk. People don't accept and encourage other risktaking behaviours like smoking, drink driving, unsafe sex etc which kill less people combined each year in Australia than obesity related illness so why is okay?

The apathy and lack of support to weight loss/increased fitness is not a fandom thing though. I put on 7kg in the first 6 months of moving to Canberra (alot given my body shape and build) as well as overall becoming less fit (a desk job will do that). When I spoke to alot of people about this they were all like "oh but you're ok" or "I still think you're hot" and these were non-fans. At one point I asked Nem (who doesn't identify with traditional fandom and has only ever been to one convention) not to bring over chocolate biscuits every day and he didn't understand why becuase "you're still beautiful". A sweet thought, but it didn't make me feel any better about the fact I struggle to run up three flights of stairs (I used to run up 6 comfortably).

[identity profile] dalekboy.livejournal.com 2007-08-03 12:07 am (UTC)(link)
Actually, there's a point - I've heard several female fans make negative comments about slender women in fandom that were overtly sexual (none about you to date) - I've almost never heard comments about larger girls who act in the same way.

It's nice to be supportive, but it has to be balanced. Maybe something like "I still think you're hot, but if you're unhappy, what can we do about it?" Saying you're still attractive, but offering support to change what you're unhappy about.

Was it you I shocked at a con with my bags of dried fruit?

[identity profile] arcadiagt5.livejournal.com 2007-08-03 09:08 am (UTC)(link)
Looking back over this thread I'm impressed (but not surprised) by the speed of the topic drift...

[identity profile] angriest.livejournal.com 2007-08-03 02:55 pm (UTC)(link)
But it's a topic drift with a recognisable logic to it.

[identity profile] arcadiagt5.livejournal.com 2007-08-03 03:01 pm (UTC)(link)
True. Which is partly why its not surprising. Still impressive as to how fast its moved.

And of course talking about topic drift is itself topic drift...

[identity profile] vegetus.livejournal.com 2007-08-05 11:27 pm (UTC)(link)
I don't recall anyone at a con with a bag of dried fruit... So I'm guessing not me. But dried fruit is tasty :D

The negative comments towards slender girls is also not restricted to fandom. I've been called "anorexic", "skinny" and "unhealthy" because I am naturally slimmer than the average person (I weighed 25kgs when I started highschool and 50kg when I left- I dropped weight since then too but have chucked it back on in the past year or so), but someone who eats buckets fo fried food and icecream and is overweight is never called "fat", "lardarse" or "unhealthy" even though they are.

As for the fans making comments about sexual slender women- I have to say there is part of me who thinks they are just envious.

I agree with the supportive whilst encouraging change thing. I think alot of people don't realise what a problem it is.
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[identity profile] purrdence.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 03:37 pm (UTC)(link)
but someone who eats buckets fo fried food and icecream and is overweight is never called "fat", "lardarse" or "unhealthy" even though they are.

Yes we are.

I've had total strangers come up to me in shopping centres and tell me off for what I was eating. Never mind it may have been the first chocolate bar I'd had in 3 weeks. I am fat and therefore am a Bad Person for eating it.

[identity profile] vegetus.livejournal.com 2007-08-07 11:06 pm (UTC)(link)
Wow.

What on earth did you say to them? For the skinny/anorexic thing I always used to walk away or make a joke about it. Or hid.
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[identity profile] purrdence.livejournal.com 2007-08-10 01:28 pm (UTC)(link)
I think 'wtf? look' would be the best way to describe the looked I'd give them.

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