dalekboy | Irrelevance to the new fen

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Irrelevance to the new fen

This post is taken from a bunch of replies on a friend's journal, that it was decided we should stop hijacking and move the discussion somewhere else.

The problem is that a lot of fans want to get along, and many longer term fans don't like change, so the old fans don't change and the new fans try to fit in. The newer folks aren't encouraged to exptress their ideas, and fans have always been good at shouting down those they see as wrong.

I tend to think that when one is well-known and respected in the scene, they have a responsibilty to the newer folks to keep an open mind and to give them the chance to express themselves.

For instance, I have the newer people in Melbourne saying they don't see the point of having fan guests. I disagree with their opinion, but respect and understand that if they feel that way, then many more new folks will as well. So I either need to justify why we do it well enough that they can see my point-of-view, or rethink having fan guests in order to be relevant to the newer folks.

Though that said, I think the fan guest issue is a tiny one compared to how magnificently irrelevant our style of cons currently are to the new crop of fans.

New fans aren't coming to cons. They see them as over-priced, they don't see that they will get any value for money, and when they do come along, they have a hard time making friends because they're shy and because many of us are shy, we're more comfy talking to people we already know.

And then they hear us slagging off 'mundanes' and similarly showing fandom's intolerance for those not like themselves. So to new folks we come across as more exclusive than inclusive.

So discuss... and especially if you're one of the newer fans, please, please, please speak up and tell us what you'd like to see at cons, and what you think needs to be changed.

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It's something we thought about, but to be completely honest putting up a big bit on your postcards and newspaper ads saying "XXX is our Fan Guest" will only serve to throw off and disenfranchise non-fans.

Do you have evidence for this or is it just a guess on your part? I'm a bit puzzled why this would be such a dealbreaker for someone -- if a potential attendee saw other things in the publicity that were attractive, not sure why this one thing would throw them off. Doesn't seem like that hard a concept. Do you make the same assumption about less well-known writer guests or media guests too?

Sorry to be so inquisitive but I don't think I've seen any other cons do this so I'm trying to understand the reasoning.

Don't apologise: it's fine to be inquisitive and it's fine to disagree.

A core understanding of marketing is that your market - individuals who you want to give you money for a membership - is always looking for reasons not to do something. So everything in your advertising and publicity that gives them pause, confuses them, alienates them or the like, is an excuse for them to use not to go.

And the very concept of Fan Guest of Honour is alienating. I find it's very difficult to explain to a non-fan without making the fan community sound ridiculously self-important. It's a term they don't understand, and if they don't understand it, it immediately leads to a fear that they won't understand a lot of the convention or even feel unwelcome when they come. And there are many, many people who only ever go to one convention in their life because they feel so aggressively cut out and disenfranchised when they arrive.

Now in a progress report (which are outdated, but that's another argument) or on a website, there's plenty of room to include a FGoH and explain who they are and why they are honoured, but in the very limited time and space you have on an advertisement it justs damages your chances of persuading the market to buy your product.

Damn you for saying it all clearer and better! *grin*

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

You did not answer my question as to whether there was absolute evidence that including the Fan Guest of Honor in publicity is alienating and causes people not to attend a convention that they otherwise might consider attending.

everything in your advertising and publicity that gives them pause, confuses them, alienates them or the like, is an excuse for them to use not to go.

A larger question, of course, is whether such a person would be comfortable at a convention at all if this concept is a dealbreaker for them. If you're trying to make your advertising sound as non-threatening as possible and as non-eccentric as possible, people are going to be in for a real shock when they actually get to the convention and find the more esoteric things that happen there! I would think that honoring a member of the community is one of the least freaky things likely to happen at a convention :->

I find it's very difficult to explain to a non-fan without making the fan community sound ridiculously self-important.

Why is it self-important to honor someone who has contributed to the community that is hosting the convention? If I saw a knitting convention or a folkdancing convention that was honoring someone who had put in a lot of volunteer time and effort to the community, I wouldn't think it was self-important of them. While I realize that not everyone thinks like I do (really, I do realize that), this concept seems so relatively normative that I'm boggled that someone would be confused and alienated by it to the extent that they would turn away from something that otherwise sounded appealing.

Finally, and this is where we really are likely to disagree, I'm not sure it's worth "selling the soul" of the convention and of fandom, so to speak, just to get a few more memberships. I know you will make the argument that we need to get people in and then slowly accustom them to what the community is like, and I largely agree, but this aspect seems to me to be going overboard in accommodating a perceived newbie audience.

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Which is fine.

You did not answer my question as to whether there was absolute evidence that including the Fan Guest of Honor in publicity is alienating and causes people not to attend a convention that they otherwise might consider attending.

And unless someone gives me a large amount of money to conduct a professional marketing impact survey on a few thousand people, there's never going to be any. There isn't any evidence that I'm wrong either. What I do have is a fairly good understanding on how marketing does and doesn't work, earned through several years of doing it professionally, and some extensive conversations with people I know or have met who would obviously adore being at an Australian SF con but refuse to try it because they find it deeply unwelcoming to look at.

If you're trying to make your advertising sound as non-threatening as possible and as non-eccentric as possible, people are going to be in for a real shock when they actually get to the convention and find the more esoteric things that happen there!

But once there it can be seen in context and it can be explained to them, just like when you explain a fan guest of honour on a website. If you have time, it makes sense and most new fans are cool with it - even rapidly embrace it. But if you've got 10cm x 7cm to play with, including "Fan Guest of Honour" and a name doesn't add anything.

Why is it self-important to honor someone who has contributed to the community that is hosting the convention?

It's not. I never said it was. I said it looks like that if you don't know what it is.

Finally, and this is where we really are likely to disagree, I'm not sure it's worth "selling the soul" of the convention and of fandom, so to speak, just to get a few more memberships.

It's not ever "selling your soul" to market something properly. It never is. People hear marketing and alarm bells go off, and they shouldn't.

A science fiction convention exists for no other purpose than to facilitate the group appreciation of science fiction, and if it does not market itself in a fashion to attract all readers of science fiction, it is not doing its job and is wasting everyone's time.

A science fiction convention exists for no other purpose than to facilitate the group appreciation of science fiction, and if it does not market itself in a fashion to attract all readers of science fiction, it is not doing its job and is wasting everyone's time.

Well, turns out I was right that this was really where we were likely to disagree :->

I think a science fiction convention exists so that a community of people who like science fiction in all its forms can get together in a common place for the weekend. I think that the *community* aspect is important. I welcome and encourage new people to join the community, but I also think that they should realize that in attending a convention, that's what they're doing, at least for a weekend.

The for-profit convention model where people buy tickets to be the audience and listen to the people on the program to me is not the same thing as a fannish convention, at which everyone can potentially be in the audience or up on a panel.

I definitely think that we should keep the inside jokes and cliquiness at conventions to a minimum and I usually strive when I'm on a panel to make sure that the terms we use are clear to the audience. But at the same time, I don't want to see us jettison the things that make us fans and not just readers or viewers of science fiction. A fannish convention is more than just an academic appreciation of science fiction, and not all readers of science fiction are going to be happy at one.

I think the more that we indicate exactly what our conventions are like, the happier people will be at them. And if there's a term or concept that we know puzzles or alienates people, I guess I'd tend more to trying to clarify or explain it than hide it.

I keep getting the impression you think I want to change SF conventions, when in truth all I want to do is see people market them properly.

I don't think you want to change them. But when you say "market them properly," you seem to be wanting at least in part to attract an audience that doesn't understand them and might be expecting something different than what they're going to get.

I think that marketing a convention properly means letting people know that the convention is occurring, what's likely to happen there, and what guests or other notable attendees are likely to be there. If you're marketing to a specific niche market, then I can see emphasizing some things (Rob Shearman to a media market, Ken McLeod to a bookstore). However, if you're marketing the convention to a general audience, I think that all convention aspects should be in the marketing.

I certainly want the convention to make back its costs and maybe have a bit extra (to donate to the fan funds, say :-> ). I also think that we should be trying to find new people who will enjoy our conventions and the things that make us fans. But I don't think that their being unfamiliar with some of our traditions, like honoring a fan as fan guest of honor, should mean that we hide those aspects to make it possibly more palatable to them.

Finally, as I said previously, my view is that choosing a fan guest of honor means not just paying their expenses and putting them on panels and in publications at the con, but also letting the world know that you are doing so.

But when you say "market them properly," you seem to be wanting at least in part to attract an audience that doesn't understand them and might be expecting something different than what they're going to get.

Let's look at this abstractly for a second:

Let's say we're trying to sell Coke. Which of the following do you think is likely to sell more cans of Coke?

1.) Coke is a carbonated beverage containing mostly water and sugar, but also contains colour 150D, food acid 338, flavour and caffeine.

2.) "Coca-Cola: Life Tastes Good" (which was the 2001 Coca-Cola slogan)

Now everyone who drinks Coke because they like it are still going to drink Coke no matter how you market it, but people who have never tried Coke are going to get a lot more intrigued by the second slogan accompanied by shots of people having fun on a beach than they are by the ingredients list. And if they drink it and like it, they'll keep drinking it. And if they don't like it, they'll drink Pepsi.

I am not changing conventions in broad strokes, I am trying to push them more open to new people. It's very frustrating to constantly see people decrying the lack of new people in SF fandom when at the same time they're beating away new people with sticks.

Coke is going to be Coke no matter what you call it or how you market it, and people who see soda in a can or bottle are going to be getting soda. If you're marketing specifically to niche markets as I gather you do, people who know about a convention only that it features a media guest of honor and or only that it will have an academic track or only that it will have a famous writer as a guest will not necessarily know what they're getting when they actually show up.

I am not changing conventions in broad strokes, I am trying to push them more open to new people.

I never said you were and agreed that you weren't in my last message. I'm also not suggesting that we emphasize fannish in-jokes and things that people might not be familiar with when trying to sell them a convention. However, what I'm trying to grapple with is the specific instance of not mentioning someone you're supposedly honoring because some people might not understand the terminology you're using. If you really feel that the concept is strange and offputting and won't be welcome by your target audience, then I personally would rather see you drop the whole idea than make the honor incomplete in case some people get offended or put off by it.

It's very frustrating to constantly see people decrying the lack of new people in SF fandom when at the same time they're beating away new people with sticks.

I guess I fail to see where mentioning the Fan Guest of Honor as one of your guests, possibly with an explanation or possibly without, is beating away new people with sticks. And as someone who has gone out of her way to try to make new people feel welcome -- encouraging the existence of and participating in "Conventions 101" panels, meeting with different writer fan groups to bring them into the fold, making sure whenever I'm on a panel that we explain whatever terms we're using that people might not be familiar with, etc. -- I kind of resent being put in that category.

Hey, absolutely no offence was meant and if I did offend you I unreservedly apologise. The "beating off with sticks" comment was aimed at the subculture itself, not anyone personally.

I don't think anyone who has met you would consider you as anything other than welcoming and friendly, matey. Certainly you're the only member of 2010 that is universally liked, trusted, and respected.

RE: Advertising - The first port of call for most conventions these days is their website. The flyers that go out are just a way to get people to the site.

And when they get to the website, that's when we (Continuum) give them a detailed idea of what they will be getting for their money, what the guests have done, the events to be expected, panel highlights, etc.

On top of that, they get as much detail as possible on each guest. The Fan Guest is included right there with the other guests, so it's understood why they are also a guest. So we never hide our Fan Guest on what we consider to be our core advertising.

The website is our core advertising because, from the feedback we got, something like 90-95% of people discovered the cons via the web, or visited the site for more info. Only a tiny percentage of members came out of the thousands of flyers we produced.

Our early flyers were A3 sheets folded down to A4 or A5, with all the info you could ever want about all the guests, venue, main events, etc. And what we found from our feedback was that all this work was a waste of time and money. People looked for a website address, and went to that.

Continuum learned from experience that the simpler the flyer, the clearer the message, the more likely people were to want to find out more. Flyers were gradually redesigned to be as simple as possible, and even then there was a lot of basic info. Dates and location of the convention, theme, guest names, website and postal addresses for getting more info or joining up (we had membership forms and prices on the back) - all on a simple, clean A5 flyer.

I don't believe in relying completely on the net, hence a postal address that also clearly states that people can ask for more info from it. I hate it when cons that don't have clear snail-mail addresses, and the invite to write to them using it.

To be blunt, if you get someone to the point of looking at your website, or writing for more info, then you're halfway there.

I still believe the Fan Guest is an important part of cons, and should be on the flyers, but I can understand the arguments for maximising the advertising space.

So long as the Fan Guest isn't short-changed on the website or the con-book, and is treated with the same respect as the other guests (hotel room, walking around money, travel costs covered, proper introduction at the opening, etc.) then I'm prepared to accept it.

Certainly you're the only member of 2010 that is universally liked, trusted, and respected.

*blush* I appreciate the compliment although I feel duty-bound to say that the other committee members deserve liking, trust, and respect too (especially the one I'm married to :-> )

Thanks for the lengthy explanation of Continuum's experiences and rationales.

I still believe the Fan Guest is an important part of cons, and should be on the flyers, but I can understand the arguments for maximising the advertising space.

I would have had a less seriously negative reaction if the explanation had been "We can only fit so much on a flyer" rather than "We don't include the Fan Guest of Honor on our flyers because it will just confuse and alienate some people who see it."

you seem to be wanting at least in part to attract an audience that doesn't understand them

Yes. You don't understand conventions until you have been to one. We wish to attract people who haven't been to conventions, and therefore don't understand them, but will like them when they do.

We wish to attract people who haven't been to conventions, and therefore don't understand them, but will like them when they do.

As do all con runners. But obviously you don't think they'll like certain aspects of them because you're deliberately not mentioning those.

As I said to

angriest, perhaps it makes more sense just not to have a Fan Guest of Honor if you think that your potential audience would be disturbed by one rather than not letting it be known that you're honoring the person except on the spot.

But obviously you don't think they'll like certain aspects of them because you're deliberately not mentioning those.

No, I think they don't know what they are yet, so there is no point in using it in advertising. I think they'll like them once they know what they are -- but the best way for them to find out is by getting them to the convention.

I've been to Burning Man a couple of times. One of the most profound and memorable parts of that experience is the Sunday night Temple Burn. Trying to briefly explain why to people who have not attended would be nonsensical or confusing ("well, we all sit around in silence for a while, and then we go away. No, its not religious, even though its called a temple. Yeah, nothing much happens really, a thing gets burned but it's comparitively unspectacular."), but its at the heart of the whole experience. Is that I should use to sell outsiders on the event?

Something near the heart of the experience that requires significant explanation isn't necessarily what you use in advertising to outsiders with limited knowledge and a casual interest -- and this in no way detracts from the value of that aspect, or its importance to insiders.

Even something as big as a Swancon (let alone something as big as a worldcon) has enough going on that trying to communicate it all in a single poster or flyer (which your potential audience will scan in seconds) is impossible. You pick and choose those items you tell them about, and you concentrate on those items that will be immediately meaningful and attractive to your chosen audience (and fan guest is not immediately understood by non-fans).

if you think that your potential audience would be disturbed by one
Actually, I think the majority of the potential audience knows what a fan guest is, and is pretty happy about it. But we were talking specifically about advertising to a specific subset of the potential attendees, that being first time attendees that we wish to bring in to the convention purely by advertising/marketing. The map is not the territory, the flyer is not the convention.

But we were talking specifically about advertising to a specific subset of the potential attendees, that being first time attendees that we wish to bring in to the convention purely by advertising/marketing.

I'm not sure how you could know that your publicity was only being seen by potential new attendees so my impression was that no advertising mentioned the Fan GoH in order not to confuse or alienate new people.

I've hijacked this thread long enough so I'll stop here. Apologies if I've annoyed or offended anyone.

I'm not sure how you could know that your publicity was only being seen by potential new attendees
No, we just know that repeat attendees are far more likely to have access to other forms of con marketing, such as PRs, our mailing list, etc, and those forms of marketing aimed at repeat attendees DID feature discussion of the Fan GOH.

Apologies if I've annoyed or offended anyone.
No apology needed from me. Sometimes, someone is wrong on the internet and this time it was us (without admitting any actual wrongness, you understand).

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dalekboy.livejournal.com - 2008-03-28 06:11 (UTC) - Expand

Just wondering: did you get to any of the academic program this year?

Some of the feedback we got on the Continuums from first-timers and the new generation of fans alike suggested they felt that Fan Guest is little more than an "in-joke". That ousiders viewed it as something they were paying for that they didn't understand or appreciate.

These days there's a real push for value for money. Even if the punters don't like one of the guests, they will look at a pro as bang for their buck.

They look at a fan guest as something they're paying for that they don't want. This coupled with the fact that only people in the fan community will likely know the guest and their achievements, using the advertising space on flyers aimed at the general public can be seen as counter-productive.

and, to be brutally honest, once they've paid, it's too late for them to have second thoughts based solely on finding out about a non-pro as guest.

I don't agree with it, I believe in naming all the guests on a flyer, and that it's part of honouring the fan guest. But cons have to work as a business first, and maximise their appeal to the general public, hence me not fighting the decision when it was suggested.

Certainly, if I was made fan guest at a con, I wouldn't expect my name on the non-fandom advertising. I'm not a draw-card and the sapce is better used pushing those people and events that may draw in a new first timer.

Interesting. Thanks for providing anecdotal evidence, not that I didn't believe

angriest.

I guess I just have a problem with saying that advertising should only include things that are likely to draw a newcomer. I think it should certainly include things that are likely to attract a newcomer, but I'm not sure I'd go all the way in the other direction and eliminate things that are standard convention features in order to woo them.

I'm curious as to whether this logic is applied to professional guests as well. People who are not devotees of Dr Who, for example, might not have ever heard of Rob Shearman. Does that mean that a con wouldn't mention that he was a guest in some publicity drives?

I don't remember if we did it, but we certainly talked about focused advertising for the Continuums.

So if our guests were a DW author, and an SF writer, when advertising them we would make the DW author the first and most prominent name when advertising in the DW and media community, and make the SF author more prominent when advertising to the more heavily lit-based community.

Three out of four Continuums had feedback forms, which really helped us shape our direction and find out what people wanted... and it also helped us to ignore the whingers :)

In Rob's case I was making a concerted effort to constantly refer to him as "Rob Shearman, writer for TV's Doctor Who" or somesuch, because the average SF reader may or may not have heard of Ken Macleod or Glenda Larke, but *everybody* has heard of Doctor Who.

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