Irrelevance to the new fen

[dalekboy]

This post is taken from a bunch of replies on a friend's journal, that it was decided we should stop hijacking and move the discussion somewhere else.

The problem is that a lot of fans want to get along, and many longer term fans don't like change, so the old fans don't change and the new fans try to fit in. The newer folks aren't encouraged to exptress their ideas, and fans have always been good at shouting down those they see as wrong.

I tend to think that when one is well-known and respected in the scene, they have a responsibilty to the newer folks to keep an open mind and to give them the chance to express themselves.

For instance, I have the newer people in Melbourne saying they don't see the point of having fan guests. I disagree with their opinion, but respect and understand that if they feel that way, then many more new folks will as well. So I either need to justify why we do it well enough that they can see my point-of-view, or rethink having fan guests in order to be relevant to the newer folks.

Though that said, I think the fan guest issue is a tiny one compared to how magnificently irrelevant our style of cons currently are to the new crop of fans.

New fans aren't coming to cons. They see them as over-priced, they don't see that they will get any value for money, and when they do come along, they have a hard time making friends because they're shy and because many of us are shy, we're more comfy talking to people we already know.

And then they hear us slagging off 'mundanes' and similarly showing fandom's intolerance for those not like themselves. So to new folks we come across as more exclusive than inclusive.

So discuss... and especially if you're one of the newer fans, please, please, please speak up and tell us what you'd like to see at cons, and what you think needs to be changed.

Comments

[angriest.livejournal.com]

But when you say "market them properly," you seem to be wanting at least in part to attract an audience that doesn't understand them and might be expecting something different than what they're going to get.

Let's look at this abstractly for a second:

Let's say we're trying to sell Coke. Which of the following do you think is likely to sell more cans of Coke?

1.) Coke is a carbonated beverage containing mostly water and sugar, but also contains colour 150D, food acid 338, flavour and caffeine.

2.) "Coca-Cola: Life Tastes Good" (which was the 2001 Coca-Cola slogan)

Now everyone who drinks Coke because they like it are still going to drink Coke no matter how you market it, but people who have never tried Coke are going to get a lot more intrigued by the second slogan accompanied by shots of people having fun on a beach than they are by the ingredients list. And if they drink it and like it, they'll keep drinking it. And if they don't like it, they'll drink Pepsi.

I am not changing conventions in broad strokes, I am trying to push them more open to new people. It's very frustrating to constantly see people decrying the lack of new people in SF fandom when at the same time they're beating away new people with sticks.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

Coke is going to be Coke no matter what you call it or how you market it, and people who see soda in a can or bottle are going to be getting soda. If you're marketing specifically to niche markets as I gather you do, people who know about a convention only that it features a media guest of honor and or only that it will have an academic track or only that it will have a famous writer as a guest will not necessarily know what they're getting when they actually show up.

I am not changing conventions in broad strokes, I am trying to push them more open to new people.

I never said you were and agreed that you weren't in my last message. I'm also not suggesting that we emphasize fannish in-jokes and things that people might not be familiar with when trying to sell them a convention. However, what I'm trying to grapple with is the specific instance of not mentioning someone you're supposedly honoring because some people might not understand the terminology you're using. If you really feel that the concept is strange and offputting and won't be welcome by your target audience, then I personally would rather see you drop the whole idea than make the honor incomplete in case some people get offended or put off by it.

It's very frustrating to constantly see people decrying the lack of new people in SF fandom when at the same time they're beating away new people with sticks.

I guess I fail to see where mentioning the Fan Guest of Honor as one of your guests, possibly with an explanation or possibly without, is beating away new people with sticks. And as someone who has gone out of her way to try to make new people feel welcome -- encouraging the existence of and participating in "Conventions 101" panels, meeting with different writer fan groups to bring them into the fold, making sure whenever I'm on a panel that we explain whatever terms we're using that people might not be familiar with, etc. -- I kind of resent being put in that category.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

Hey, absolutely no offence was meant and if I did offend you I unreservedly apologise. The "beating off with sticks" comment was aimed at the subculture itself, not anyone personally.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I don't think anyone who has met you would consider you as anything other than welcoming and friendly, matey. Certainly you're the only member of 2010 that is universally liked, trusted, and respected.

RE: Advertising - The first port of call for most conventions these days is their website. The flyers that go out are just a way to get people to the site.

And when they get to the website, that's when we (Continuum) give them a detailed idea of what they will be getting for their money, what the guests have done, the events to be expected, panel highlights, etc.

On top of that, they get as much detail as possible on each guest. The Fan Guest is included right there with the other guests, so it's understood why they are also a guest. So we never hide our Fan Guest on what we consider to be our core advertising.

The website is our core advertising because, from the feedback we got, something like 90-95% of people discovered the cons via the web, or visited the site for more info. Only a tiny percentage of members came out of the thousands of flyers we produced.

Our early flyers were A3 sheets folded down to A4 or A5, with all the info you could ever want about all the guests, venue, main events, etc. And what we found from our feedback was that all this work was a waste of time and money. People looked for a website address, and went to that.

Continuum learned from experience that the simpler the flyer, the clearer the message, the more likely people were to want to find out more. Flyers were gradually redesigned to be as simple as possible, and even then there was a lot of basic info. Dates and location of the convention, theme, guest names, website and postal addresses for getting more info or joining up (we had membership forms and prices on the back) - all on a simple, clean A5 flyer.

I don't believe in relying completely on the net, hence a postal address that also clearly states that people can ask for more info from it. I hate it when cons that don't have clear snail-mail addresses, and the invite to write to them using it.

To be blunt, if you get someone to the point of looking at your website, or writing for more info, then you're halfway there.

I still believe the Fan Guest is an important part of cons, and should be on the flyers, but I can understand the arguments for maximising the advertising space.

So long as the Fan Guest isn't short-changed on the website or the con-book, and is treated with the same respect as the other guests (hotel room, walking around money, travel costs covered, proper introduction at the opening, etc.) then I'm prepared to accept it.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

Certainly you're the only member of 2010 that is universally liked, trusted, and respected.

*blush* I appreciate the compliment although I feel duty-bound to say that the other committee members deserve liking, trust, and respect too (especially the one I'm married to :-> )

Thanks for the lengthy explanation of Continuum's experiences and rationales.

I still believe the Fan Guest is an important part of cons, and should be on the flyers, but I can understand the arguments for maximising the advertising space.

I would have had a less seriously negative reaction if the explanation had been "We can only fit so much on a flyer" rather than "We don't include the Fan Guest of Honor on our flyers because it will just confuse and alienate some people who see it."