100 days of Love and Hate - Day 16

[dalekboy]

Lists
I'm an anal retentive bugger. So now and again, I go nuts and compile lists and sort things to the nth degree.

A week or two ago, I did a list of subjects for 100 Days of the good and bad things I wanted to talk about. I soon realised that having all the subjects mixed up together made it a little harder to deal with, so a few days back I turned it into a very simple Excel spreadsheet. Two columns, love and hate.

Today, I added additional columns next to the other two. These columns gave each item a general reference. For instance, Human Sexuality has the reference Sex, Fight Club has Film, Event Fandom is fan, etc.

This means I can order the list and see that, over the remaining 84 days, I have 28 film/tv shows and concepts to talk about. 17 people concepts, both specific and types. You get the idea. It also means I can see that my Love list is longer than the Hate list - 77 to 62. It's nice to see the things I love outweigh the things I hate. I was worried at the start that I may have trouble coming up with enough for the good list, but would have plenty for the hate list. I reckon I'll be able to come up with enough on the hate list, but I'm not going to be upset if I don't.

I'm adding to both lists all the time, it's easier than trying to remember that there's a subject I want to talk about when something sparks the thought. Today, for instance, Star Trek Voyager made it onto the Hate list. Twice.

But I love lists. I have lists of almost all my DVD's, lists of the Doctor Who Magazines I'm missing... But I still don't have my 1400 video tapes catalogued. *grin*




Drinking
In this case I'm talking specifically about the cultural push to drink. I have no problem with socialising, but I'm rarely in the mood to drink. Many people drink to relax, as a rule I'm pretty relaxed. I don't need to get drunk to do the things that most people need alcohol for. As to the social aspect - if we're already talking and interacting, how does drinking alcohol make me any more social than if I'm drinking water or softdrink?

I can chat and flirt badly without needing alcoholic lubrication. I've walked down the middle of a major street with my willy out when I was stone cold sober. I don't need the excuse of being drunk to hug the people I care about or act obnoxious. And I have the advantage that the next day I know exactly what I've done and can enjoy it all because I chose to be an idiot, or cuddly, or to drop my trousers, rather than doing it out of diminished ability to judge.

Another reason I rarely drink is that I get brewer's droop. Only takes a couple of drinks and I'm useless from the waist down. And I care a lot more about sex than booze. And if I'm going to have sex, or just a good wank, I want to be fully functional, thank you. Why would I do something that that I rarely enjoy more than a little that actually reduces my ability to do something I like a lot?

The last proper drink I had was probably two years ago. I've had a couple of tastes of things in that time, but not even a full glass. I just haven't had the desire for a drink between then and now. When I do want a drink I'll have one.

(Sidenote - having just said that, I suddenly fancy the idea of a beer. Which is funny because I don't like beer... I wouldn't even know which brand to try. Maybe VB cause dad drank it *grin* )

What shits me is the push. I've struck it many times. You're treated as though there's something wrong with you if you don't want a drink. "What's wrong with you?" "Why won't you drink with us?" "Come on, have a drink. Come on. Go on, just the one. Have a drink." "Don't be unfriendly."

I've actually gotten to the point where now I lie to people who try to push me to have alcohol. I don't like doing it, but after they've pushed once or twice I tell them that I like the booze too much. And they nod and say ok, sorry, and leave it at that. And that's the only way I've found to consistently stop people when the first couple of no thank-yous haven't been enough. By pretending to be alcoholic. How utterly fucked is that?

But I've learnt through bitter experience that if I don't act so drastically, the hassling continues and ends up completely colouring and ruining an otherwise good night. So I trade feeling slightly upset that I've had to lie against being made to feel a social pariah because I'm not in the mood to fill my body with poisonous, brain-damaging chemicals.

I shouldn't have to be put in that position in the first place.

If I didn't like fish, most people wouldn't keep pushing me to eat it. What's amazing is that the people who are pushing the 'be social' angle are actually being so incredibly unsocial, singling me out, making me feel unhappy and put upon by their insistence that I should be drinking.

I had a major fight one year with a good mate who got really pushy about me having a drink on New Year's Eve. He actually said I wasn't being a good friend because I didn't want a drink with him! He stormed off when I said he wasn't being a good friend by trying to force me into something I clearly had no desire to do.

And this sort of behaviour gives me even less desire to drink.

Then there's the other extreme. Most Swancon's I go to a specific, invite only party where the main goal of the party is to have shitloads to drink. It's invite only because you're meant to bring a bottle to share and too many people started rocking up without one. I get to go because I'm a mate. It's the only private party I go to, generally I'd rather go to more public things. But I have good friends there and it's a chance to catch up with them when I otherwise may not manage it, so if I'm going to parties that night, I try to drop in for an hour or so. And I have a great time.

A party where the whole point is to go and get smashed and I have never once been pushed to drink. I regularly get offered the various bizarre concoctions and my no thanks to each is taken at face value, with no further pushing, beyond the occasional 'you sure?' I've not yet had an alcoholic drink at one, but I have no doubt that one day I will. And when I do, I'll be happy to.

If you want a drink around me, go for it, I'm happy for you to have a drink. And please, feel free to offer me one, I may well take you up on it if I'm in the mood.

Just please don't push.

Comments

[jack-ryder.livejournal.com]

There's an easy answer to people forcing you to drink alcohol - just tell them you've converted to Islam.

If I didn't like fish, most people wouldn't keep pushing me to eat it.

Don't be so sure.

Iain (drinker and piscaphobe)

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I used to try to tell people that I got violent when drunk, and they still tried to make me drink, thinking it would be funny! Idiots! That's why I started the alcoholic angle.

On the not being sure about fish thing, I know that's not strictly true. But over the years I've found the push to drink several orders of magnitude greater than any other thing. Many people seem to accept that you don't want to eat this or that, don't want to drive fast, do drugs, etc, fairly promptly by comparison. In most social groups there seems to be at least one drinker who is pushy about it.

It's like people who try to get vegans to eat meat. They've made a conscious choice not to. You don't have to like, understand, or agree with it, but it's not being forced on you, so just bloody respect it.

[meljane.livejournal.com]

I went to a party one time with some soccer mates and cos we tend bring mostly soft drink and don't feel right someone elses booze(unless there is something we like that we have permission to drink)and Ken is usually driving and needs me to keep him awake,so we stuck with the soft drink.

While everyone else was drunk at the end of the night we were still sober and one friend came out to say goodbye and asked us if we were religious just cos we drank no booze , that question still weirds me out to this day .

People are strange creatures indeed.

[gutter-monkey.livejournal.com]

Yeah, I don't drink either. I'll occasionally have a kahluah & milk but apart from that I also have no need/desire to imbibe. I also come up against the push quite often.

Here at work they've actually set up a bar on the 6th floor with several very large (and very locked) fridges full of beer. Every Thursday night is drinks night, and people quite often ask me if I'll be coming up for a beer. Uh ... no.

I was once at some ocker guy's house with my Dad and the guy was very insulted when I didn't take up his offer of a beer. Jeez.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

In the works drinks situations, I'd happily go and chill with my workmates, but I'd know the push would be on so I wouldn't.

Yeah, had plenty of Aussie blokes get huffy about not wanting a beer, that's where the alcoholic thing is a real winner *grin*

[cheshirenoir.livejournal.com]

Those parties you talk of,

Interestingly I also find that I don't tend to get very drunk at that party. The pressure is just not there. Sure there is the occasional "Oh my god that tastes terrible!" which I can't resist, but yeah.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

It is, by far, the most relaxed social drinking occasion I can think of. Most of the people are there to drink, none of them are pushy, I get to see my friends get sloshed and have a good time. I enjoy the chance to catch up with people that I may not see otherwise through the con.

And after an hour or so, I head off to find public room parties or go to bed. But I leave happy.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I genuinely love a lot of booze. I love the taste and experience of good beer, good wine, good whisky, various horrible spirits (especially a good G&T). Its a great pleasure in life. I don't have any alcoholic tendencies (I can cheerily go weeks without a drink, sometimes hardly noticing), and if I have to choose between quality and quantity I'll take quality every time. Though deliberately bad booze (like some of the shocking cocktails at that party you mention) can be fun in the right context too.

I've certainly been known to binge drink - a few drinks kills the good judgement that should make me slow down - and I've had a few experiences with alcohol I very much regret. Of all the drugs I've tried, its the one that scares me the most.

But on the whole, I enjoy it a lot. I like to savour a good drink, I find being a little drunk makes some social situations more fun (not all), I find it can help me relax in stressful times. I could easily get quite evangelistic about good booze if it was appropriate -- if you or anyone else asked me about how to enjoy good wine, or good scotch, or good beer, you'd see some real enthusiam for the subject.

But drinks for those that don't want it? Using social pressure to force drinks on the unwilling? What a stupid and obnoxious idea.
And even worse is drink spiking and that sort of crap. Morally repellent.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I remember a party from many years ago with sjkasabi. She wasn't a drinker and went to the trouble of making sure there was non-alcoholoic punch. There was also alcoholic punch. Someone deliberately spiked the non-alcoholic. I know it was deliberate because they told me they had.

I remember SJKasabi being quite reasonably upset. I turned to the culpit and said "Satisfied?" Naturally, they didn't think it was a big deal.

That seems to be part of the attitude. Drinking's no big deal, so why won't you drink?!

[leecetheartist.livejournal.com]

Have you tried the Little Creatures Pale Ale, dalekboy? It's a very fruity beer.

My husband, Rob, doesn't drink alcohol at all, never has. (I like a couple of ales myself, but lagers taste like 2cent pieces in battery acid to me) Interestingly it's his family members who start to pressure him to drink. His Dad, his brother, brother in law. I get really frustrated at their continual offers.

I don't remember, ever, any of his/ours friends being pushy to the extent that dalekboy has suffered. Very odd.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

A lot of fans tend not to be pushy with it.

[lilysea.livejournal.com]

Oh, ditto. As a non-drinker, pressure to drink = annoying and frustrating. (I remember getting horribly ribbed by two volunteer tour guides from a French youth hostel because I wouldn't eat meat at the restaurant they took us to or drink the wine.)

It seems to be getting better as I get older, though. Maybe it's the circles I move in?

Or maybe just that no-one believes that I'm sober anymore?
(On three different occassions, I've had people believe that I'd been drinking heavily. No, just natural exuberance, I guess. Plus, being *around* people who've been drinking, one tends to relax as they do. Passive-drinking, as it were.)

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Circles make a big difference.

[kaths.livejournal.com]

I'm pretty much with you on the drink thing. But I've never actually been pressured to drink (or smoke).

A big issue for me is I don't actually like the *taste* of most alcoholic beverages. Beer, wine and champagne just taste awful to me (actually all fizzy drinks do).

The only thing I actually like the taste of enough to have a few drinks is Baileys (mixed with milk, and sometimes milo, or just hunks of chocolate).

I can't stand feeling nauseus, so that cuts me out at about 3 or 4 drinks maximum anyway. And the concept of not being able to remember things the next day is just horrible.

The occasional tipsiness is fine, and it's is probably good for me to be more relaxed, but I have to be careful as I can get a bit over-sensitive (more than usual!) so I get upset easily.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Yeah, it's the taste that puts me off a lot of them. I love a really nicely aged whiskey though. My first taste of whiskey was Dimple, aged nearly 20 years. It was just warm and pleasent.

I also like Chartruse, nicknamed Green Fire. It can be wuite nice. But the last time I had some would have been about 3 years back. Still got plenty.

As to relaxing... I find you fairly relaxed as you are.

[bigevilogre.livejournal.com]

I ever drink. Unless it's for the taste of the stuff I'm drinking. I always found it more fun to mess with whoever is getting drunk. To the point where I had a car I used specifically to pick up friends when they were blitzed. NO shocks at all. Just springs. vinyl seats and no carpeting in the car at all so I could just hit the car wash when they get sick.
Made the mistake of getting someone in the Camaro, once though. It accelarates SO HARD they got sick. Puked on the windsheild and down into the heater. In order to get to te heater I have to pull the center console... in order to pull the center console I have to pull the transmission. Ugh, never did that again.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I've been vomited one by someone who regularly drank too much and ended up chucking.

And I know of one guy sitting in the back seat of a car, in the middle, and when they couldn't pull over quick enough he projectile vomited straight ahead, it hit the windscreen and splashed back over everyone.

I torture people who vomit because the vomiters rarely have to clean up their mess. So the next day when they are dealing with their hang-overs, I do everything I can to make them feel atrocious.

Drinking

[king-espresso.livejournal.com]

Yea, definitely know what you mean about peer pressure to drink. I grew up with it and grew out of it. Too much alcohol makes me sleepy (more than 2 or so), therefore I prefer coffee. It makes me alert, I love the taste and they don't breathalize for it. (Sorry sir, but you're over the limit of alertness...)

What's a worse pressure, is having a couple of fridges full of leftover alcohol from your wedding. At the moment I have shitloads of Cooper's Red Label (if you feel like a beer try that one), Beck's, savignon blanc, verdelho and a few cartons of merlot... half of it will end up as some kind of marinade for barbecue meat...

Re: Drinking

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

For people who don't drink, Sharon and I have a surprising collection of alcohol.

[willowgypsy.livejournal.com]

Feeling pretty poorly today but wanted to kinda say something today - will fill in the blanks later...

1. Lists - me too! I make lists, then colour code them, then use tables, etc. As a stationery lover and someone who likes physically writing, I tend to do it on paper first. Did you know that they reckon most psychopaths/sociopaths make lists?? :)

2. With you on the drinking. Choose not to. I spend a terrible year drunk in which I believe I was an alcoholic. Not interested in revisiting that land. Plus, and this relates to all drugs, I think it is sad that people need chemical help to have a good time. I don't.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

You use tables? You are adorable!

I think drugs and booze is easier for some people than doing something active, mentally or physically.

I remember one person talking about her group of friends who she went drinking with every Friday night. She had to take medication at some point and wasn't allowed alcohol, but she still went to the Friday nights. She discovered that the only reason she enjoyed them was because she was getting drunk. When she was sober, all her friends were boring.

She stopped going.

[ariaflame.livejournal.com]

I'm not quite so bad on the listmaking, though I've got a couple of excel sheets I use when I'm playing Animal Crossing.

On the drinking front I'm right with you. Don't like the taste of most alcoholic drinks, (I tried a sip or two of sambucca at a swancon party once and quite liked the taste, but aniseed balls are cheaper, ditto malibu and bounty bars.)

Usually unless it's heavily disguised I think I can actually taste the alcohol. Which my tastebuds identify as yuck.

I don't think there's so much of a push on us females to drink as you get with the blokey stuff, and usually if someone asks if I want a drink then an LLB is taken as an acceptable answer (I know technically there is alcohol in it but the amount is so tiny and so overshadowed by the bitter that I can't taste it.)

If I win any alcohol at quiz things or whatever it usually goes to my parents who do drink in moderation normally, or if they are going to push the limit a bit usually call me in advance to arrange for me to give them a lift home from the party, because after all who paid for my driving lessons ;). People who bring alcohol when visiting get thanked, and the wine put in storage for if/when I do have visitors who do drink. Or possibly cooking (another indication that it's the taste of alcohol itself that's the problem, if the alcohol is cooked out I have no problem with the stuff in cooked food)

I'm also disinclined to lose control. Fun's all very well, but I really doubt that losing inibitions through alcohol or whatever brings out the real 'me'. Besides, I don't seem to need it, sleep deprivation at cons produces perfectly natural punchy/giddy states. Possibly. Given a non-awful tasting drink, and in company I fully trusted, and if I was curious enough to find out what kind of drunk I'd make I might. But it's unlikely.

So given all that I don't see the point of cultivating a taste for something that would dent my bank balance, kill off my brain cells and probably leave me embarrassed over what I said or did.

And noone should try and bully people into doing things which they don't like. As in other contexts, 'No means No'.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Animal Crossing?

[ghoath.livejournal.com]

yeah, with you on the drink thing.
Mind you, when people try to force me, I give them stories about my dad drinking himself to oblivion and nearly recking our household etc etc, taht tends to shut them up.

You hate voyager twice? As a voyager addict, I'm forward to that one to see your perspective. No I'm not going to throw things at you and say that Kathryn Janeway's the best captain ever and must be reveered as a goddess always.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

There's the story I found totally offensive, from a writing point of view, not what it dealt with. That gets its own special post. There were probably worse stories, but this was the one that stopped me watching. I came back when the brought in seven of nine because I wanted to see how they handled that, and kept watching.

And the series itself, which I thought wasted all it's potential, get a post.

I honestly believe that over and above any other Star Trek series Voyager had the most potential to be mind-bogglingly brilliant sci-fi TV. Two crews with opposing ideologies in a single ship, seventy years from home in a totally alien part of the galaxy. With modern television effects and the Star Trek franchise strength to allow you to really stretch and tell stories that would be to controversial to tell on another series.

I would club baby harp seals for the chance at something that good.

Voyager occasionally produced a great story, but more often than not, produced weak stories. That said, it was rare that a Doctor or Seven of Nine centric story was crap. Most were at least good, many were excellent.

[purrdence.livejournal.com]

You missed a great karaoke room party at SwanCon...

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I got to many parties last Swancon. Too busy being all guesty and preparing for things.

[fe2h2o.livejournal.com]

I was thinking that I don't really understand the pushing drinks mindset... but then I thought about when we have guests to dinner (I'm not talking large gatherings where if I remember I'll offer people drinks when they arrive, but other than that assume that if we know them enough to welcome them, then they should feel comfortable enough to help themselves). I find it _very_ difficult if someone doesn't want tea or coffee (or chocolate, or water, or another wine, or a beer, or some other thing we have on offer—we have an _extensive_ range of teas, coffees etc). I often feel quite antsy about their lack of drink (of _any_ description).

I don't know if it's because that's the point where we usually relax in the lounge, and I feel that if they don't get a drink when I'm offering, they'll decide they want one when I sit down? Which is ridiculous, because it's often livelurker doing the actual getting of drinks—he's the coffee expert! And we rarely (never?) have people to dinner who I wouldn't assume would be able to get their own drinks—nor would I have a problem with them doing that...

Very odd... shall have to ponder on it more...

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I look forward to your ponderings :)

[gutter-monkey.livejournal.com]

I'm posting from my brother's computer at his house, 'cos he's throwing a birthday party for himself (30) and my dad (60) tomorrow. His ocker friends are going to be setting up a bar in his garage and stocking it with a shitload of alcohol. He's been telling me stories about his friends. Apparently one of them likes to give people a drink called a 'wildfire', which is a shot of vodka or something with about 8 drops of tabasco sauce floating on top. This guy is very proud of the fact that it makes nearly everyone he gives it to throw up. What the fuckity fuck?

I bought a bottle of Kahluah for myself. It'll probably last me an entire year. It's the only alcohol whose taste I like enough.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Ahhh... the ocker mentality... If only we could keep the good stuff and excise the rest.

[davidcook.livejournal.com]

All of my co-workers over here were very disappointed when I turned out to be an Aussie who doesn't drink beer ... Glaswegians are rather fond of their drink. (well, two of them are Irish, but they're also fond of their drink)

Also, any club, sporting or other gathering has a default "and then go to the pub afterwards" here - after juggling, after fencing, and the Friends of Kilgore Trout (local SF-ish crowd) just skip the boring bit and meet straight at the pub.

Finally, a lot of people seem to assume that if you don't drink on one occasion, that you don't drink at all, which isn't true in my case either. (ever seen A Very Peculiar Practice ? Like Dr. Daker in that ... ).

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I love pub outings. Love them. Always enjoyed the social atmosphere of pubs.

Well, good pubs anyway.

The confusion that people have when they find that you do drink, but sometimes choose not to, is amazing. It seems to be, 'if you like a drink, why wouldn't you do it whenever you get the chance?'

[possbert.livejournal.com]

I like alcohol - in the past I've liked it a leeetle too much. These days, however, I just can't handle the hangovers that result from even small amounts of booze. I hate the headache and nausea and the knowledge that the rest of my day is stuffed because I'm going to feel like this for hours.

That said, I'm very fond of single malt whisky, nearly all of Little Creatures product and champers. I ain't no cheap drunk!

[baralier.livejournal.com]

I'm a list person. Especially when I'm palnning something like a trip. Packing lists are probably my most common one, with item divided into subcategories.
My books and DVDs are catalogued (though my DVD/Videos are only about 300, no where near as many as yours) but my CDs aren't.
Shopping lists, To Do lists (that don't always get completed), reading lists. It's all good.

[baralier.livejournal.com]

As for the booze, I enjoy a drink but I dislike being drunk. I'm not a beer person though I don't mind some of the UK beers - more ales though. Cider is my preference but it's rather hard to find in Australian pubs and almost non-existent in "wine bars". Spirits I'm fond of, prefering whisky.

Occassionally I'll ask some-one if they're sure they don't want something alcoholic rather than soft but I try not to push the issue. It's all personal choice.

[(Anonymous)]

The "social drink" mentality is very weird, isn't it? I don't like the taste of alcohol, so I don't drink either, but people are always saying "but you'll like this one - it doesn't taste of alcohol!" That hasn't proved to be true yet ;-) I get the same reaction with tea/coffe drinking also though - I don't like the taste of either of those (or even Milo, though I do like hot chocolate), and people can't handle it when you say you don't want one of those either. It's like you're personally rejecting them when you reject their drink. Weird. Jenny

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I'm the same with all of those. Coffee and tea and Milo.

[hespa.livejournal.com]

I've just started reading back through the Days of Love and Hate I missed, though I may never make it if I keep trying to read everyone's comments on them as well, not to mention getting the urge every time to add my own $0.02. What a response!

Towards the end of last year, after a year of wanting to strangling my fellow TAFE-mates (all of whom, bar one, were fresh out of high school) for having as every second conversation topic either "how smashed I got last night/weekend" or "how smashed I'm planning to get tonight/this weekend", an equally non-drinking friend and I decided to try this "smashed" thing, just once, and find out what so many people see in it. Up 'til then I'd been tipsy a few times and quite enjoyed the light-headed feeling of it, but never more than that.

So we bought a couple of bottles of spirits and sat together in a local park. We drank and talked and drank and talked. And then we went home. Verdict: we'd opened up to each other a lot, and had a lot of laughs, both of which we do anyway (to me, these are the basic mainstays of any good friendship). And we'd staggered about a lot, fallen over a couple of times and felt distinctly ill, none of which had added anything positive to the experience.

Thing is, the next day I experienced the joys of alcohol poisoning for the first time. I can't call it a hangover, because it didn't have any of the symptoms so often portrayed in fiction - no sore head, over-sensitivity or dry /icky mouth, I just felt abominably ill and threw up a lot. And since then, it doesn't take more than a taste of alcohol to make me feel queasy.

So perhaps you could use that as an excuse? "Sorry, I'm allergic to alcohol..."

If nothing else, I'd love to know how people react (the occasion really hasn't come up for me yet). Would they believe it?

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

No idea. Will report back if I don't hear from you first :)

[tikiwanderer.livejournal.com]

When I worked as a barmaid, sometimes after a shift one of the customers would offer to buy me a drink. Not because they were after anything, but just that that's what you do with a young woman who you appreciate. I'd say yes, and ask for a lemonade. They'd often get a little offended that I was only asking for a lemonade, because it implied that I didn't think they could or would pay for something more expensive, and they didn't want to be seen as cheap.

I got around this in a few ways, guessing at the personality type I was dealing with, and taking into account how I was feeling and what I wanted to cope with.

One was to start with the lemonade, and then just say "No, really, it's been a long shift and I have to drive home shortly and I don't want the drink to make me any more tired but the lemonade will wake me right up".

One was to suggest that I have one of what they'd been having, if it was something that had interested me from a professional point of view (what does that combination taste like? kind of thing).

One was to just start by asking for a lemon-lime-and-bitters, because that sounds and looks exotic and interesting, and it's a good girl drink. It's important to look like a girl when a man has offered to buy you a drink.

And one, very simple one, was to make the drink myself before I finished my shift, leave it behind the counter while I went and changed, and then grab it when I came back to sit down. That way they didn't necessarily know what I'd ordered for myself, or have any input into it.