100 days of Love and Hate - Day 21

[dalekboy]

Moral people
People shit me. And amongst the people who shit me the most are the 'moral' ones. The self-righteous, judgmental, supposedly 'good' people.

I have two personal examples to bring to bear. The lesser of the two first.

Recently, as in the last three or so years, there was the situation between Sharon, Kali and myself (see Kali post). Kali and I became close, some people noticed. Pretty soon, word was getting back to us about how horrible we were, screwing around behind Sharon's back. The other variation was that Sharon knew, but was powerless to do anything about it.

At no point did the people talking like this come out and actually ask any of us what the situation was. At best, Sharon was unknowing, at worst she was weak. No-one ever bothered to ask her, to check with her to see how she was. Meanwhile, some people (not many, fortunately) were painting Kali and I as immoral.

They were the ones content to say 'it's none of our business' and yet still gossip about it. If it's nothing to do with you, not any of your business, then don't tell people about it. Especially if you haven't bothered to check what the situation really is!

If you care enough to gossip, care enough to offer help to the 'wronged' party. Otherwise you're just as guilty of wrong-doing.

I have been on the other side of this.

I have seen a mate where I actually knew his girlfriend was screwing someone else, because she was actually in another relationship at the time she started shagging him! He knew nothing about it, but her partner did. He was meant to be a conquest. Other girls had wanted him, but this one had gotten him in the sack, which as she had been making clear to her partner, was all she wanted.

Of course my friend was happy, totally unaware that his new love's girlfriend was actually her girlfriend. That he was being talked about as a conquest, nothing more. They would laugh about it, and tell their friends about her new boy. Their friends were my friends, and one was my partner.

I double-checked everything first, went through multiple sources. It took a few weeks. 'Are the girls still together?' 'Well they were last night.' I chatted regularly with him, teasing out bits of info to be sure he didn't know, to be sure that he thought it was a real relationship and they weren't just fuck-buddies.

And once I was sure, I spoke to him.

Presented him with everything I knew, told him I hoped I was wrong, didn't want to be telling him this, but he deserved to know, one way or another. It was utterly horrible and draining, by far the hardest thing I've ever had to do. I was fully expecting that he may well stop being my friend.

After much angst, his girlfriend dumped her girlfriend and stayed with him. It's now years later and they're very happy together, and good for them, I'm glad it's worked out well.

Our friendship was certainly hurt by the situation, the girlfriend didn't like me much anymore, so he distanced himself from me. But we are still friends. Even if we weren't, I'd do it again.

Emotions are funny things. Was she merely using him at first, and then found herself falling in love with him? Was she in love with him and lying to her girlfriend? Either way, there was certainly a point where one, possibly both of her partners were being lied to.

I like to think I'm a moral person. I won't stand by because it's easier or safer not to say or do anything. I will take my time to try and make sure of what's going on, and to build up my own guts to do what needs to be done, but then I do it. Too many times I've seen people who found out that 'everyone' knew that their partner was screwing around. How fucking horrible, to be surrounded by 'friends' who never once spoke to you, found out if you knew. Or assumed you either didn't care or were powerless, and yet they never offered you help or support.

Yes, it's hard. Yes it can be unpleasant. If it were easy, everyone would be do the right thing.

Now to the one that actually makes me really fucking angry.

Many years back, I got dumped. Dumped at a very vulnerable time of my life. Dumped for a good friend. It sucked. It hurt. It was horrible.

I found a new partner who, to protect the ex I'm talking about, I shall call Lee. It wasn't a rebound thing, we'd been close friends for some time, we moved naturally to a new level. We got on well and shared many of the same friends with my ex, as happens in fandom.

Over several months however, many of our mutual friends dried up. They stopped talking to us, we stopped getting invited to things... Anyone would have thought that we had done something really socially unacceptable or mean.

Then one day, one of what felt like my few remaining friends said they had to ask me a serious question, and she wanted an honest answer. I said ok, and she asked me if I'd ever hit my ex. I was shocked, genuinely shocked. I said no, and then inquired as to the reason for the question.

My ex was implying that I used to beat her. She never actually said that I hit her, and I know she never would have, because then she couldn't deny it. But it was very much in her style to play up the situation, to give people highly emotive and suggestive analogies as to how she felt, and not offer any sort of correction or qualifier to stop them drawing the wrong conclusion. It was also in her character to do what she could to avoid blame and make excuses, and given our split-up, that meant making it look like she was right to dump me.

Over the next few months, I had a handful of other friends ask me the same question. Over the next few years, I found that a few of my remaining friends had been given the same impression, that I used to beat my ex, but had refused to believe it. I actually would have preferred they check with me, rather than take it at face value, but I appreciate their trust.

So, Lee and I lost a large portion of our friends, all down to something that was never actually stated, let alone true. They didn't want to hang around with a guy who hits his girlfriend. Fair enough, good call.

But now, gentle readers, we get to the thing I find most upsetting, offensive and disgusting about this whole situation. If it had been true. If I was a guy who belted his girlie around, the sort of guy these 'moral' people didn't wish to hang with, and had very consciously distanced themselves from - in doing so they had just removed Lee's support network! They also cut off all contact with her. If I had been belting her up, she would have been left with no friends to turn to, nowhere to go.

My real friends had the balls and the respect for our friendship to ask me flat out, or knew me well enough to know it was rubbish. These 'moral' folks not only distanced themselves from someone they saw as bad without any real proof, they distanced themselves from his next potential victim!

I'm still mildly annoyed at my ex, but I've forgiven her. I have yet to find it in myself to forgive those people, not because they believed the rubbish, but because they left an innocent women to the dogs. They did me a favour by removing themselves from my lives. People that thoughtless I'd rather not waste my time on.

Morality isn't merely about what you think, it's about what you do.




Kali
I've yet to write about Sharon in 100 Days because I wanted to wait until I was in the same city as her again. But writing about my Mistress, who for ease of writing and my own amusement I shall call Kali, needs to be done now if I'm to do it while we still share a city.

I have a Mistress, in the traditional sense of the word, as opposed to the bondage meaning. She's marvelous. Utterly wonderful, as is my wife, Sharon. Between the two of them, I am fortunate enough to have many of the different aspects of my life complimented and enhanced. I'm paraphrasing Kali here, but her summation is roughly, 'Sharon gets the relationship stuff, I get the sex, we're both happy. Sharing you between us means we each get time off from you...'

Some backstory - Sharon has an amazingly low sex drive. When I say that, people nod knowingly and say things like 'So... what, once a month?' And I reply, 'Three years into the marriage, we'd had sex less than ten times, and half of those were in the first six months.' Sex has never really interested her. I was her first kiss. She'd just much rather read a book than have sex. And if I'm not going to push other women to screw me, I'm certainly not going to make my wife do something she doesn't usually enjoy. I knew this going into the marriage, it wasn't, and isn't, an issue. Sure, I get frustrated, but God gave me a right hand and porn, so I'm sorted.

Sex is a big part of a relationship, but it's not the most important part.

So over the years I've found myself with a small handful of lovers, with Sharon's full approval and consent. They've all been women I cared deeply for, either as friends or more, Sharon knew them all and it never impacted on my relationship with her. She's actually said, she gets upset and annoyed that I'm messy, but she doesn't mind me sleeping with other women.

Eventually I met Kali, we hit it off. We were talking late one night when she was staying over, and decided to take the convo to the bedroom, because it was incredibly late and we didn't want to stop talking. We both enjoy physical contact with people we like, so we cuddled up naked in the dark, held each other and chatted the night away. No sex, that wasn't the intention, it was just talk.

And, in simple terms, we fell in love. As mentioned in this post, this didn't negatively effect my marriage, it revitalised it.

The relationship that developed between myself and Kali was an order of magnitude beyond that of any other lover. So we took things very slowly. This wasn't just going to be dear friends who had occasional cuddles or sex, this ran much deeper. So there was a year, where we had a lot of cuddles and talks and drew closer. We both felt blessed to have each other in our lives.

Kali and Sharon got on a treat, too. They'd go out to restaurants together without me, generally hang and have a good time. They aren't best mates or anything, they're too different for that, but they are friends, and the love (and occasional irritation) they feel for me adds an extra level of support and closeness, even when they don't understand each other. The best summation of how close they are is that when Sharon got her new job in Canberra, she apologised to Kali for taking me away from her. Kali's response was to point out that no, this was a really good move for Sharon, and would probably do wonders for the marriage.

Kali has never doubted my commitment to my marriage, nor has she ever sought to draw me away from it. As a matter of fact, she's held me together and given me advice when things were bad with Sharon, kept me going by reminding me that what Shaz and I have is worth fighting for.

It was a year before we had sex. Oh we wanted it big-time before then. we wanted it the first night! But in that time, Shaz was given several opportunities to end things. As we felt ourselves getting closer, on several occasions we asked Sharon if she wanted us to stop. We would have been upset if she'd said yes, but we would have understood and respected it, too.

And in the final weeks before we had sex, Sharon was consulted with several times. Kali and I knew that, given how close we had gotten, once we started having sex we would not be wanting to stop even if Sharon ended up feeling uncomfortable. We would stop, but we'd be very unhappy about it. It would be far easier never to start, keep things at the level they were at - cuddles, skin contact, long talks. So we made that as clear as we could - Don't give us the go ahead if you have any doubts as to how you will feel once we start.

She gave us the go ahead. She's never expressed any problems with the relationship Kali and I share. For this Kali and I will always be grateful.

Sex with Kali is good. Very good. I know I speak for both of us when I say that sex with one another is an order of magnitude greater than with anyone else. We're constantly suprised and blown away by just how amazingly fantastic it is. And it's very basic. Kali isn't into foreplay, games, etc. she just likes a good shag. I actually do like foreplay. I really like spending that time on a partner, enjoying their body, paying them that attention. But it doesn't matter, because after three years, it's not only still great, it's very slowly getting better.

Now, sex is a big part of our relationship, both Kali and I are sexual people. We like to show affection with physical intimacy, we like to pay attention to people we like. But it would never have developed at all if it weren't for the way we interact.

We're mates, best friends, occasional enemies, lovers, equals... We enjoy many of the same things - getting out in the wild, encouraging people to explore their boundaries, creativity, etc. - we're passionate about the world and life in general.

We have a level of trust between us that goes beyond the norm. We can both be truly fragile with one another, and given that neither of us likes to admit our weakness, even to ourselves, being able to actively be weak with someone else is a huge deal. We 'get' each other better than most people, and can tolerate each other's crap because the rest is so amazing. If it were just sex, we would have stopped after six months. We'd probably have shagged now and again when we saw each other, but we wouldn't have stuck around putting up with each other the way we have.

We love each incredibly deeply and compliment each other well. That includes temperament. We'd happily fight a pub brawl together, which may sound a weird thing to say, but it's true. I've had mates that are bigger and better fighters than Kali, but there's no-one I'd like in my corner more. She matches my temper and viciousness, which in a pub brawl is what you need to get through. In that situation I can't be worrying that someone she's knocked down is going to get back up because she pulled her punches. And I know she can take damage and she won't let it won't stop her.

She's got a keen mind and radiant personality. We spur each other's creativity, passion for life and urge to explore and inquire. We fight viciously, hating the control and influence the other can exert on us, and make love with equal intensity, giving ourselves to each other fully. We communicate daily, and miss each other when we're not both so busy that we don't have time to notice. And we're already really concerned about phone bills when I'm living in Canberra. They're high enough now!

Together or apart, we know that we'll always have a place in each other's lives and wouldn't have it any other way.

She truly rocks.

Comments

[capnoblivious.livejournal.com]

At best, Sharon was unknowing, at worst she was weak.

I get that. I've been told that there's no way my partner can be happy in an open relationship, that she's doing it because I forced her into it.

Credit the girl with a bit of backbone, I say!

[purrdence.livejournal.com]

I've had that said to me too.

No one noticed that Drhoz and I actually left out about anything about not shagging other people in our wedding vows, but then again, we didn't do that traditional vows anyway.

[king-espresso.livejournal.com]

It takes guts to write a posting like this one, mate and good on you for it. But it takes more. It takes a willingness to be vulnerable and to leave yourself open for cheap shots, ridicule and censure by those who don't understand. I hope that particular shitstorm passes you by.

Some of the things you went though with the moralisers are things I've experienced too. All my best to all three of you.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I'll second what he says. A salute to you courage and openness, sir!

Some of the things you went though with the moralisers are things I've experienced too

One of these days I'd like to do some comparing of notes. I'd like to know the enemy better.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Seriously dude, I'm past caring. I've never been one for secrets, they tend to eat people up, I'd rather be open and honest.

In person we try to be discrete. Our relationship is not something that people necessarily understand, nor wish to be exposed to. And we respect that.

But this is my journal, and the point of 100 Days is to talk about the things I love and hate, and give people a chance to get to know me properly. If I were to leave out Kali, someone who I love dearly, what's the point of even starting this?

And who knows, maybe some of the natterers and whisperers will actually choose to talk to me like adults about this stuff, rather than gossiping with each other like old women.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

There are two problems with 'moral' people, and I think you've put your finger on both.
The first is that true morality has to admit some uncertainty. Has to admit that humans are fallible, and so its possible they are wrong about at least some things, probably many. Which means tolerance for difference of opinion about some moral issues is a foundation of real morality.
The second is that not only do two wrongs not make a right, judgements without action don't add up to much either. If you aren't prepared to do something about it, you're part of the problem.

I think there is an interesting point about what you said about peoples judgment of your relationship. A lot of comes down to being willing to underestimate people (in terms of moral worth, in terms of insight, in terms of say within a relationship) before even investigating.

I've actually heard, sad to say, worse stories about the moral judgments within fandom, though the ones that really bother me are from longer ago.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

The people I'd really like on my side in a pub brawl are the ones that basically nice, but with a determined stubborn pragmatic streak (which describes both of you). You want people that would get involved for the right reasons, but won't hesitate or wimp out. Of course, being built more like vanilla_extreme would help too.

Nice?

[shazgirl.livejournal.com]

You think Danny and Kali are nice? Dave, Dave, Dave. They are both vicious, evil people and will be horribly insulted to be thought "nice". I, on the other hand am terribly, terribly nice. Except that I could cheerfully eviscerate the ex who implied that Danny beat her. Slowly. With rusty tools.
And I'm still the nice one.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Its a compliment to how much you manage to cover in these posts, or perhaps how much they resonate, that I'm going to make yet another response.

I just want to say that there was quite a lot in your description of the relationship with the three of you that had me either filled with happiness for the three of you, smiling in recognition, or with just a little bit of deep nostalgia and regret. Love to all.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

This was another 4-hour post, so to know it touched you is nice to know.

[purrdence.livejournal.com]

Very well said Danny.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Thank you :)

[gutter-monkey.livejournal.com]

What is it with exes lying/implying that their boyfriend used to beat them up when they didn't?

I guess it's the next-to-ultimate king hit when it comes to dirty fighting.

A friend of mine worked in the hair care centre of a certain large department store and one day she was giving a treatment to a woman who just happened to tell her about how her ex used to beat her. The only thing is, the woman giving her the treatment (my friend) was currently going out with said boy, so the story got back to him pretty darned fast. He was shocked an appalled. They'd had horrible nasty rows but he'd never ever hit her.

Then again this same woman spread stories about me as well. For the record, I never plucked out my pubic hairs and stuck them to the bathroom wall, or any other surface. I wish that was just a crazy joke but it's not, she actually told that story to people.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I can sort of see how/why my ex did it/it happened. I'm well-liked, and her timing (the break-up coming at a time in my life when things were already bad), being dumped for a good mate, the fact that she tried to leave me with all the bills and rent, and then started saying that Lee should be paying all that, even though Lee didn't live there and was only turning up to make sure I was ok - it all made her look like an utter fucking bitch who was dumping someone the moment life wasn't perfect. Now that wasn't strictly true, but it certainly looked that way.

So, she wanted to not look like the bad guy.

She dropped around a few times to sort stuff out, obviously hated doing it, was guilty and angry because of it. Now I wasn't angry, or nasty, I was hurt and depressed and I kept fairly quiet about what had gone on so as not to have our friends alienate her.

It was after that she started using the phrase "Feeling like a battered housewife" liberally around people, in relation to her interactions with me. I have no doubt that she then gots lots of sympathy. She may not have even realised the effect her words were having, but she would have been aware that people were now siding with her, and courted that.

She had no idea the sort of pain and terror a battered housewife can go through, she had a cushy life. The sad thing. It sometimes makes me wish I had hit her, after all, I was treated as though I had.

But she can still always deny that she ever said I beat her. She just never said I didn't when people were led that way.

an interesting post

[khoath.livejournal.com]

I too found this post informative on a number of levels, having an interesting relationship situation myself. Re the moral people; it's easy enough for an X to accuse you of something you didn't do; I was accused of raping a girl I went out with. Interestingly enough many more people believed her story rather than my version of events. A friend of mine asked another friend, "Did Kerry really rape xyzzy?" to which the second friend replied, "just think about what you just said and what you know about Kerry, what do YOU think?" doubt is a powerful force indeed. Luckily I had enough friends to stick up for me and explain how things really were to those who were unsure. Of course I would have explained it myself; but nobody saw fit to ask me.
The second point is that morals are such an intangible thing; given the subjective nature of the world morals depend on where you stand. I learnt a long time ago to not say "I would never..." just in case I did.
I recall when my wife became involved with a guy on the bowling trip, and what an initial social mess that was. I remember the bolwing people not knowing what to say to me. I wanted to just yell at them and say "Yes I know she shagged mr H; now can we get back to normal and can you leave the details of this with me?" We ended up sorting the whole thing out; in the process rewriting our rule book, and as a result we are now closer together than we ever were before. She is also aware of her responsibilities, and even with this awareness it doesn't stop her from doing the things she wants within reason.
I gained freedoms I rarely exercise, and we're better people as a result. If we're both honest with each other in all things, then by definition lying and cheating won't finish our marriage.
No-one ever said telling the truth was the easiest thing to do, but if you do take that path, then at least you will know that you have been as true to yourself and others as you can be.
that was far too long for a comment; but there you have it.

Re: an interesting post

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I gained freedoms I rarely exercise

In theory I could have had way more sex over the years. But I can't be bothered actively pursuing it, and I'm too picky. If my heart's not in it in the right way, then I don't want the sex.

Well, no... I do want the sex, I just won't be having it.

But I'm always up for cuddles!

Some words for you...

[willowgypsy.livejournal.com]

Some words I am feeling about you and your post today:

Courageous, Brutal, Inspirational, Achy, Smiley, Envious, Honoured, Honouring, Beautiful... and the seeming word of the moment in many of my posts: M A G N I F I C E N T

Thank you :)

Re: Some words for you...

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

*blushes, hits 'post comment'*

[bunnikins.livejournal.com]

OMGWTF? *points at Danny* PERVERT!!!!!







Ok, ok, I kid. Beautifully written, babe. You are most clever with the words n' stuff. Got me all indignant with the first part & all warm and happy with the second, you did.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

OMGWTF? *points at Danny* PERVERT!!!!!
Stop flirting with me :P

As to the rest, thank you. Means a lot from you, I've always liked your take on the written word. Thank you.

[shazgirl.livejournal.com]

Another good thing is that Kali and I get to gang up on you. I always have an ally in picking on you and making fun of you :) And we can work so well together. Like that time that Lameo rang you and was driving you nuts. Kali and I chorused "Danny, come back to beeeeeddd!" I think we broke his brain :)

[king-espresso.livejournal.com]

With all due respect to you guys, breaking Lameo's brain is kinda redundant. But in general it sounds like you guys are a force for good ;)

Gotta drive to Sydney now. Bye

[tearsxintherain.livejournal.com]

That was really beautiful. Well, the second bit. The first bit was grr-inspiring.

I've been trying to explain the concept of open relationships to people over here and they just can't seem to understand.. I'm not sure if it's because they're English and thus culturally slightly different, or just because they're *them*..

But I'm so happy yours is working so well. You guys rock.

.. and thankyou so much for sharing so much of your life ..

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Glad you liked it. I originally had them in reverse order, and decided I'd rather end on a happy than a Grrrr...

It there a regular sticking point with folks on this?

I've always liked sharing my life. It makes me think about things, question things... And it also opens me to other opinions and ways of thinking. Gives me new possible thoughts and directions, maybe better ways to do or think about things.

[nicked-metal.livejournal.com]

We communicate daily, and miss each other when we're not both so busy that we don't have time to notice. And we're already really concerned about phone bills when I'm living in Canberra.

Internet voice chat. Skype, yahoo messenger or MSN messenger. (Probably lots of others by now.) Over dialup, you get acceptable call quality and over anything better, it's at least as clear as a phone line.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I've never seen such opening and all-encompassing honesty in a person online before and it's making for inspirational, intelligent and brilliant reading.

I've had a somewhat opposite situation to you in that I once started going out with a girl who basically went out with me "on the rebound" from an abusive boyfriend, who then dumped me after two weeks because her ex had begged her for "one more chance". Gotta say that did wonders for my ego, to be dumped in favour of Mr Slappy.
I should say that nine years on, said ex-girlfriend is now happily married to someone else entirely with kids.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I've never seen such opening and all-encompassing honesty in a person online before

Thank you. These are the sorts of conversations I enjoy having. I like a bit of raw depth and honesty, and hate having secrets. Other people can have them, but they aren't for me.

And there's many people on here, yourself included, that I would have happily had convos with like this over the years, but seldom get the chance. So given everything that's happened recently, and the fact that 100 Days is meant to be about loves and hates, it seemed pointless to not be totally honest.

I love a good, intellectual, emotional, honest, open discussion. I also like talking Doctor Who, talking about sex, silly and stupid conversations about made-up stuff and what-ifs, and when you and a mate are pretending to play catchies with a ball that doesn't exist.

[(Anonymous)]

You have a brilliant and compassionate mind that sparks with amazing creativity. I watch you engage with life, and engage deeply and wholeheartedly, and and I'm surprised anew many times over at how much of yourself you bring to things, how much of yourself you give freely and lay out open in front of people.

You are raw, primal and powerful, with a core of strength and vitality that springs from the bottom of the world. And you gift yourself endlessly to others in whatever way seems to be wanted or needed (or just a fun idea).

You are beautiful. I've laid down beside you or woken up beside you I don't know how many hundreds of times now, be it in person or by voice or any other way, and each time you fill me with how beautiful you are. I look at the lines of your face, the structure of your bones and the light in your eyes, the curls of your hair, and it almost breaks me apart. I watch the way you move in delight, how your delight and enthusiasm for the world comes through in every gesture. Even now when moving is so much harder for you you still dance in each step, just more slowly. I wonder how blind anyone could ever have been to call you ugly, because I simply can't see it.

You are so incredibly desirable. Your skin feels magnificent, and I rise to it at every touch. As a lover, you're talented and caring, and beyond that what we have seems to go that order of magnitude beyond where anyone else reaches. (And the size of your package is much appreciated ;-0 0 0)

(Seriously, girls, he's good. Check him out sometime ;-)

I guess what I'm saying is that I love you, all of you, as you and just you. But you knew that.

And you deserve every kiloton of love you get from everyone, wholeheartedly.

Kali

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Was doing ok until the package comment. And the pimping me out.

Can't type, blushing

Love you.

[chaosmanor.livejournal.com]

You've been one of my favourite people for a long, long time.

*hugs*

[baralier.livejournal.com]

Wow. I've known you for many years but never really got to know you as more than a fan friend or acquaintance. Reading your posts on these has been informative and has given me a deeper insight as to who you are as a person. I may disagree with some of your opinions but that's what makes me a different person anyway.

It's interesting about the external relationship. I didn't know about Kali, though I had heard about another person. My reaction was more of a shrug. If everyone was happy with it then why should I be concerned? Though as a result of my Ex getting involved in a friend's open relationship *without* my knowledge I have nothing to do with them (which has apparently disappointed a couple of people) I can't see why people need to stick their noses in to be other people's moral guardians.

I'm going to miss you going to Canberra dude.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Reading your posts on these has been informative and has given me a deeper insight as to who you are as a person. I may disagree with some of your opinions but that's what makes me a different person anyway.

Which is why I decided to do proper posts instead of just a list. There are people, like yourself, who I'm only just getting a real feel for, and make it a real shame I'm moving when I am.

Really would have liked to be better organised and have another six months in Melbourne, just because of people like you and Hespa, let alone Mitch and Mondy.

[jblum.livejournal.com]

Bravissimo.

...Now I'm just trying to work out whether it's Sharon or Kali who I've met... I thought it was Sharon, but I also thought you referred to her as "girlfriend" rather than "wife".

Curse you polyamorous types, carrying on without any regard for how *confused* we innocent bystanders get!

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I'd say it was Sharon. In most cases Kali would have only been introduced in the normal way you introduce two folks who don't know each other.

We tend to be discreet :)

So called "moral" people

[(Anonymous)]

This is Lee here.

I remember that well. At first I was just furious at the people who would just believe such a thing of you. I couldn't believe that they had not asked you (or asked me!!). I felt hurt that we then seemed to lose friends and not get invited to things but figured that if they were going to believe such things and change their attitude to us without checking out the truth of things then I probably didn't want their company anyway.

Because you weren't abusive and I didn't need a support network I missed the implications for quite some time. I don't remember why I put all the pieces together but I still remember my shock when I did. "They think that Danny is the sort of person who would abuse me. They have withdrawn from contact with me. Therefore, if he was abusing me, they have withdrawn their support from me." Luckily I didn't need a support network, but if I had, they had just cut down my available options. Strangely, I decided that I now wanted their company even less than when I was just furious at them for believing slander without ever checking it out.

Ghods protect me from "moral" people.

[lilysea.livejournal.com]

Just wanted to say *thanks* for this post. I really enjoyed reading it. Hmm. Maybe enjoy isn't the right word. It made me think, too.

Anyway, *thanks*. *admires your honesty, bravery, and articulateness*

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

You're welcome, and thank you :)

Thoughts

[linstar.livejournal.com]

I don't use my account very often. in fact, I tend to only use it to reply to posts that I feel strongly about, when I am alerted to them. This was one of those situations.

You guys are all absolutely awesome. I'm so pleased to count the three of you in my circle of friends despite not having seen you guys for ages. Have absolutely adored the time we have spent together (on beaches, at Swancons and just overall in general) and am so pleased that we have had that opportunity.

Your post made me think a lot about how we see ourselves and our relationships and how other people view us. So very inspiring.

Open relationships are something M and I speak about together a lot. Not because we are unhappy with each other - far from it, I couldn't be happier with anyone else if I tried. And I *think* he's happy with me! :)

For us it's a means of saying to each other, we absolutely adore each other and are comfortable enough within ourselves and out relationship that it wouldn't matter if we experiemented. We've set our boundaries in that it wouldn't happen with just anyone, and the other person has to approve of the person chosen. It provides us with interesting topics of conversation and gives us both something to look forward to, should any of this ever eventuate. Kali has been counted on M's list, and before that post, I hadn't even considered you, but now, I find myself seeing things in a different light! Especially after Kali's package comment!!! :)

At the very least, that was a lot of rambling to just send some hugs in your direction, for all three of you. *huge hugs*

Re: Thoughts

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

You're gorgeous, you know that? *grin*