This post is taken from a bunch of replies on a friend's journal, that it was decided we should stop hijacking and move the discussion somewhere else.

The problem is that a lot of fans want to get along, and many longer term fans don't like change, so the old fans don't change and the new fans try to fit in. The newer folks aren't encouraged to exptress their ideas, and fans have always been good at shouting down those they see as wrong.

I tend to think that when one is well-known and respected in the scene, they have a responsibilty to the newer folks to keep an open mind and to give them the chance to express themselves.

For instance, I have the newer people in Melbourne saying they don't see the point of having fan guests. I disagree with their opinion, but respect and understand that if they feel that way, then many more new folks will as well. So I either need to justify why we do it well enough that they can see my point-of-view, or rethink having fan guests in order to be relevant to the newer folks.

Though that said, I think the fan guest issue is a tiny one compared to how magnificently irrelevant our style of cons currently are to the new crop of fans.

New fans aren't coming to cons. They see them as over-priced, they don't see that they will get any value for money, and when they do come along, they have a hard time making friends because they're shy and because many of us are shy, we're more comfy talking to people we already know.

And then they hear us slagging off 'mundanes' and similarly showing fandom's intolerance for those not like themselves. So to new folks we come across as more exclusive than inclusive.

So discuss... and especially if you're one of the newer fans, please, please, please speak up and tell us what you'd like to see at cons, and what you think needs to be changed.

From: [identity profile] crankynick.livejournal.com


So, let me put an alternative point of view:

Why the fuck should we care?

What is the obsession with forever expanding the 'fan base' and Con attendance? Why the fuck does every con need to be bigger, and why is size ANY kind of measure of how successful a con is?

I go to cons to sit around and talk shit with my friends, many of whom I only see once a year, at SwanCon - given that I only went to half of one panel, you could probably argue that I spent $150 for the privilege of sitting in a bar with my mates. So what? My call.

Like any other social event, I'm under no more obligation to be 'less cliquey' or more welcoming of new fans than I am sitting down the pub with my friends, or at any other group social event. It's good to meet new people, and maybe I have some new friends from this con, but neither I nor anyone else at the con should feel any obligation to be nice to every random stranger that walks up to them and starts a conversation.

There are a bunch of people there every year that I don't want to talk to, and don't want to talk to me. And that's OK too - people are under no more obligation to be nice to me at cons than they would be to any other brash arrogant bloke trying to be funny down at their local.

And con committee's only obligation is to attract enough people to make their budget and pay the bills - and, despite steeply rising venue prices in Perth, I'm not aware that there's been any serious danger of a committee failing to do that over here in some years.

I'm in favour of cons changing over time, and I quite like the sound of a lot of the suggestions [livejournal.com profile] cheshirenoir (and others) made earlier in the thread - but changes in programming and focus will occur when they're needed, and when a group of people have the drive and energy to make them happen.

If the current model isn't as appealing as it used to be, it will change - or die.

But I think it's a touch disingenuous, not to mention pointless, to say that it will only all be OK if we were nice to people for a change.

From: [identity profile] crankynick.livejournal.com

And another thing...


Plus, I think this image of a lonely new fan walking into a con looking to make friends is largely some kind of rescue fantasy.

My experience, inside and outside of the fan community, is that people generally only enter a new social situation in the secure company of existing friends.

People start coming to cons as a group, basically.

Maybe that's starting to change as cons become the venue for online meetups - but even people doing that are meeting with an existing community or group of friends. The only real issue for them is finding them.

From: [identity profile] callistra.livejournal.com

Re: And another thing...


I think you're right. People don't come to cons to meet new friends - not that they would admit it, even if they did. I asked some new people this year. One girl was there for her dr8 in fantasy. Her boyfriend was there because she dragged him. Other people were giving a paper, or attending for a friend's panel. New people come because of a specific thing - a person, a panel, some thing, not because we're a lovely buncha coconuts.

And I agree we should be putting more effort into finding groups that already meet up and co-opting them if we want to expand our customer base.

From: [identity profile] davidcook.livejournal.com

Re: And another thing...


I agree, I found that I needed to make friends outside of the Con environment before I really started getting the most out of a Con.
[livejournal.com profile] rwrylsin and I have seen this twice, when we moved to Melbourne, and then when we moved to Glasgow - our first con after each move was basically spent hanging around with each other and doing random program items.
Once we joined the MSFC in Melbourne, or found the local fen in Glasgow, we started getting more fun out of cons.


From: [identity profile] capnoblivious.livejournal.com

Re: And another thing...


Plus, I think this image of a lonely new fan walking into a con looking to make friends is largely some kind of rescue fantasy.

Well, I went to my first con fairly cold - I was into SF, a SF con seemed like a reasonable thing to do.

It was deathly dull; I didn't know anyone, the easily approachable activities were fairly lame, and the experience was saved only in the sense that the stuff discussed on panels was new to me.

I went back a few years later in the company of some friends from my writing group - many of whom were long-time fannish con-goers - and had a blast.

So, recruiting to cons seems to best happen in the way you say - but only because the lone con-goer approach sucks.

(And, you know, I've heard tales of the lone con-goer being swept up happily into fandom. It happens, I guess, though I sometimes suspect I'm being told the one story several times.)




From: [identity profile] baby-elvis.livejournal.com

Re: And another thing...


I went to my first con at 16, without knowing anyone at all. There had been a brief mention in the West Australian newspaper that I read. I was nervous, yes, and so, I took my Mum with me. Swancons were much smaller in those days, and so as a new person you stood out! I was swept up by people who were at the front desk and chatted to, shown around and had some con things explained. The program listed all the clubs in WA, so that you could continue to be fannish for the rest of the year.

Now, being a 16 year old female at swancon in 1981 probably helped my acceptance. But, I think it was more important that I was recognised as new, and so people sought me out to make sure I was okay. Having some mark on badges etc, of 'newbie' status might be helpful. Perhaps each day there could be a lunch meet up for new people and more experienced attendees (who could be scheduled to be there.) I think many would find that 'formal' structure to be helpful and safe.

From: [identity profile] capnoblivious.livejournal.com

Re: And another thing...


Now, being a 16 year old female at swancon in 1981 probably helped my acceptance.

Um. Possibly. :)

My problem with a marker of newbie status is that it can make one feel terribly exposed - see, if it works according to plan and you're swept up into the wonder that is fandom, well and good. If not, you're left standing around uselessly wearing a said marker of newbie status.

The balance point between the number of people you'd help, and the number you'd alienate would depend very heavily on the treatment people with newbie markers were given. Largely ignored: you feel the community has marked you as ignorable. Largely welcomed: you feel welcomed.

From: [identity profile] rwrylsin.livejournal.com


"Why the fuck does every con need to be bigger, and why is size ANY kind of measure of how successful a con is?"

Absolutely. Small cons and 1-day cons can be great, and possibly a much better venue to discover fandom.
My favourite con experiences include a 1-day event largely devoted to space program topics, and one which was largely the result of a group of friends drinking too much and deciding to throw an SF-themed weekend away for 100 of their closest friends or whoever was willing to help pay the hotel bill.
Cons don't have to be everything for everyone.

From: [identity profile] strangedave.livejournal.com


Swancon currently sits at a very awkward size in terms of finding a venue. We are currently slightly priced out of the venues we would like to use, often resort to using ones just a bit smaller, and have a lot of pain as a result. An extra 50-100 attendees would make a big difference. And there is a pretty good case that we would have those extra people now if the last few cons had just been consistent about gradually trying to expand the audience.

But yeah, while I'd argue for consistent promotion and general policies of being welcoming to new people as an organisation (promotions for first time attendees, social ice-breaker events, etc) I don't think trying to either socially engineer who existing attendees talk to/drink with/eat with, or radically changing the event to one more like an anime con or gate show are the way to go.
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