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This post has been brewing for a couple of years. It's not about any one of the many causes worth fighting for, it's not about or aimed at any one person, it hasn't been spurred on by any one event.
Abuse and accusations are not how you win people over to your way of thinking. Keeping your allies on the back-foot because you think they should know better does not help teach them how to better understand or present your side of an argument.
It's with good reason that there's only a handful of people I listen to when they talk about issues. They have earned my respect on the subjects, not just because of their knowledge, but the way they deal with the people they interact with.
Time and again I have heard some folks say that a person shouldn't be rewarded just for doing the right thing. It shouldn't be praiseworthy that you're doing what everyone should already be doing anyway.
I would agree with this, except for one major problem - that same person will often be actively punished the moment they take a wrong step. And if they make a point of saying, "But how about all these occasions where I've done it correctly?" they get abused for expecting praise for doing the right thing.
If someone offers you a drink because you're thirsty, do you not thank them? If someone offers you food, shelter, a hand carrying something heavy, just because it's the right thing to do, should they not be thanked? How is acknowledging someone who does the right thing a negative act?
"Well, when I do this stuff, no-one ever acknowledges it," isn't a reason, it's an excuse to indulge in equally poor behaviour. "Well when I do these things, I don't expect to get thanked." Well that's great, but chances are you're not being taught these things, either. You don't necessarily need the encouragement or support, don't need the affirmation that on this delicate issue, you're doing the right thing.
Acknowledging the ones who do it right helps to show them they're on the right track, and for those who don't understand the issues it's a pointer in the right direction. And that is a vital first step to changing minds - letting people see the behaviour that is valued and considered desirable.
If you saw someone teaching children, and they abused all those who didn't understand the subject, ignored the ones who did it right, and then attacked and belittled the good ones every time they made a mistake, would you think that person was doing a good job of teaching? At an almost instinctive level you would know that this is the wrong way to teach, that for every child successfully taught this way, there would be numerous ones where it was an abject failure.
Most people would rather avoid being taught the subject altogether, than cop the abuse.
Any cause you champion, puts you in the role of teacher. You're tying to undo social conditioning and thought processes that have probably been ingrained since childhood. You're trying to teach a point of view that is often alien to the student. Even if they think they understand the problem, they probably don't get most of the nuances and subtleties no matter how much they try, and many will be painfully aware of this.
You're not going to achieve your goals through impatience.
I'm not saying you can't be frustrated. I'm not saying you can't question what they meant in order to ascertain whether they were doing the wrong thing, or misspoke, or are merely confused and need a gentle nudge in the right direction. I'm not saying you can't get stuck into someone who is an arrogant bastard. But pick your battles, pick who deserves to be yelled at and who deserves a quiet, "Um, I think you might be mistaken..."
Never assume deliberate belligerence where a lack of knowledge, an honest mistake, a poor turn of phrase, or good old fashioned thoughtlessness could be the real cause of the error.
If you think you're going to fix people's thinking by abusing those who know no better, withholding acknowledgment from the people who do it right, and by aiming cheap shots at the promising students when they make a mistake, then you know as little about humanity as those you wish to educate.
Abuse and accusations are not how you win people over to your way of thinking. Keeping your allies on the back-foot because you think they should know better does not help teach them how to better understand or present your side of an argument.
It's with good reason that there's only a handful of people I listen to when they talk about issues. They have earned my respect on the subjects, not just because of their knowledge, but the way they deal with the people they interact with.
Time and again I have heard some folks say that a person shouldn't be rewarded just for doing the right thing. It shouldn't be praiseworthy that you're doing what everyone should already be doing anyway.
I would agree with this, except for one major problem - that same person will often be actively punished the moment they take a wrong step. And if they make a point of saying, "But how about all these occasions where I've done it correctly?" they get abused for expecting praise for doing the right thing.
If someone offers you a drink because you're thirsty, do you not thank them? If someone offers you food, shelter, a hand carrying something heavy, just because it's the right thing to do, should they not be thanked? How is acknowledging someone who does the right thing a negative act?
"Well, when I do this stuff, no-one ever acknowledges it," isn't a reason, it's an excuse to indulge in equally poor behaviour. "Well when I do these things, I don't expect to get thanked." Well that's great, but chances are you're not being taught these things, either. You don't necessarily need the encouragement or support, don't need the affirmation that on this delicate issue, you're doing the right thing.
Acknowledging the ones who do it right helps to show them they're on the right track, and for those who don't understand the issues it's a pointer in the right direction. And that is a vital first step to changing minds - letting people see the behaviour that is valued and considered desirable.
If you saw someone teaching children, and they abused all those who didn't understand the subject, ignored the ones who did it right, and then attacked and belittled the good ones every time they made a mistake, would you think that person was doing a good job of teaching? At an almost instinctive level you would know that this is the wrong way to teach, that for every child successfully taught this way, there would be numerous ones where it was an abject failure.
Most people would rather avoid being taught the subject altogether, than cop the abuse.
Any cause you champion, puts you in the role of teacher. You're tying to undo social conditioning and thought processes that have probably been ingrained since childhood. You're trying to teach a point of view that is often alien to the student. Even if they think they understand the problem, they probably don't get most of the nuances and subtleties no matter how much they try, and many will be painfully aware of this.
You're not going to achieve your goals through impatience.
I'm not saying you can't be frustrated. I'm not saying you can't question what they meant in order to ascertain whether they were doing the wrong thing, or misspoke, or are merely confused and need a gentle nudge in the right direction. I'm not saying you can't get stuck into someone who is an arrogant bastard. But pick your battles, pick who deserves to be yelled at and who deserves a quiet, "Um, I think you might be mistaken..."
Never assume deliberate belligerence where a lack of knowledge, an honest mistake, a poor turn of phrase, or good old fashioned thoughtlessness could be the real cause of the error.
If you think you're going to fix people's thinking by abusing those who know no better, withholding acknowledgment from the people who do it right, and by aiming cheap shots at the promising students when they make a mistake, then you know as little about humanity as those you wish to educate.
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no subject
http://www.sunpig.com/abi/archives/2009/04/12/how_to_sour_a_community_in_one_easy_lesson/
Obviously it alludes to some off-stage conflict. Veeerrry possibly the same one you're alluding to. Personally, I don't want cookies and pats on the head, but I can do without being punched in the tits.
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Of course the grumpiness and headache makes it very hard to write those thoughts coherently :)
I'm pretty much right with you RE: cookies and tit punching.
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I think a broad online consensus may be forming on this issue.
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It's become one of those things where people are hamstrung by those looking to make someone uncomfortable. It's like the old thing where you tell someone they look nice today and their reply is, "So you don't normally think I look nice."
And if one steps in to say, "No, I'm pretty sure that's not what they meant," then one becomes nothing more than a fresh target.
It is not helpful to anyone.
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The problem is everyone wants people to be classed as good or bad. There's no grey areas, you're with us or you're against us. And it's all bullshit.
People are people, there are very few purely good or purely bad folks. The vast majority of us are shades of grey, and we have our times of exceptional good and great evil.
But no, everyone wants to be a good person, and for many of them how good they feel is directly proportional to how much worse than them other people are. So they go hunting for for them, and will magnify any chink in the armour out of all reasonable proportion.
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I beg to differ about people
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Re: I beg to differ about people
Luckily most people are not psychopaths.
My main problem with giving my opinion on things is that usually I am too good at seeing both sides of an argument. So I don't have hugely strong opinions on most things. And early conditioning has made me less likely to speak up even if I do have a strong opinion on something.
But
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Re: I beg to differ about people
I was good at my job, but was hamstrung by management. They didn't like me but couldn't acknowledge my worth. My personality changed and I have been deeply hurt by my experiences there. I won't say that it's A Good Thing, but I am learning how to stand up for myself. That and my last job actually want me back after having had my baby. Do you know how much that tingles?
I'm too scared that I won't say the "right" thing. I'm learning that there isn't a "right" thing it's just what I think. I'm still scared. But meh. Either I listen or I don't.
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Re: I beg to differ about people
Good on you. It can be so hard, when some part of you believes the bullies.
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Re: I beg to differ about people
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From there I thought about the people I've seen get totally reamed over something small, and how I've watched them turn nasty about that subject, where previously they were simply apathetic.
That's not an effective result for anyone.
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"Yes Minister"
I do think JMS got it wrong, there cannot be two castes of Minbari, Religious and Warriors, there has to be a third worker caste, who actually grow food, build stuff and are at the bottom of things. I had always had this mental image of a nondescript Minbari bowing low to Delenn, murmouring "Yes Satai,of course Satai, what an innovative decision" before backing out of the room.
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Thought like this have been brewing when I've been thinking about the online racism debate.
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I'm basically sick of seeing relatively good people who, based on their previous actions and posts, obviously believe in and actively support some of these important causes, and yet they have their every comment picked apart by people looking to trip them up.
And this is usually done by people who know them!
I'm also sick of everyone who doesn't understand a complex social problem being accused of being against it, or told that they can't understand it because of who they are.
The thing about any issue is that people need to be educated, not abused, told they're dumb, or that their life experience precludes empathy for another. Those reactions just mean that people who'd be willing to help, that would be willing to listen and try to learn, end up putting it in the too hard basket.
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I'm terrified of offending people, or of having people think less of me or be angry at me, so often I'll stay quiet to avoid that.
Commenting on the internet can be delicate because it's hard to convey emotion with text, and so easier for people to take things the wrong way. Also in some cases people don't see the consequences of the things they say to people (for example they won't see someone cry after someone says something hurtful to them), and so speak more harshly than they would do in person.
I think this is a bit of a tangent to your rant, but these are thoughts that it brings up for me.
From:
no subject
I kind of think of it as a, by default, central idea. Attacking every little slip just silences the people you should want on side.
It's sad. On one hand you have people saying, "If you're staying silent, then that's effectively giving permission to such-and-such that this behaviour is okay," on the other, a loud section of the people who believe this will shout down and pick apart potential allies until they decide that silence is the best option.
The other thing about the internet is that people are very brave about thoughtlessly tearing someone apart online, but the vast majority of those same bullies would be far too scared to act so rude face to face.
As far as I'm concerned, you're welcome to say what you want on here. If someone started picking I'd be all too happy to tear them a new one.
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It transcends scale or power boundaries, too - for example, I wish I could staple this to the inside of the eyelids of many so-called world leaders (be they political, religious, or business), as most of the time I just wish they would just grow up, given that they spend most of their time behaving like spoiled brats in a playground.
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Or like trying to tell the bosses again and again, that saying thank you to your staff for doing a good job was important, and getting the reply, "They get thanked every pay-day with a pay packet."
No, the pay packet is a legal and contractual obligation. Saying please and thank you to your staff is a social one.
Actually, the whole general kerfuffle that I'm reacting to smacks of, "See how easy it is?" syndrome. Someone is capable either through natural ability or years of experience, to do something quickly and accurately. And every time they are dealing with someone relatively new, or who has a different skill set, they keep harping at them and making the point that the task is incredibly easy, inferring that the person is either stupid, untalented, lazy, or all three.
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This left me feeling stupid because it wasn't obvious to me.
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My family has a rough sense of humour, and one element of that is you tease the people you love. Over the years my dad made many, many harsh comments that were water off a duck's back to me. But one of the most silly and innocent, "You look like a bloody monkey when you whistle," said to me when I was about ten, cut me to the quick. I still have an internal flinch and am incredibly self-conscious every time I decide to whistle.
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*nods*
In one place I worked we relied on file clerks to get customer packets for us from secure storage. Now, this was a low paid and shit job, basically pulling files all day and delivering them to the desks of 'important' staff. I always made sure I thanked them every time they delivered something to my desk. Yes, it's their job. Yes, in a way it is creating work for me. And yes, it is dead easy to do (and low paid). But y'know what, without them i could not do my job, and they weren't just invisible people who didn't deserve recognition. They even got to know my name, which in a place that size is saying something.
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I've never been good at the Chrissy card thing, but try to make a point of giving chocolates or similar to staff of places that give me good service every Easter and Christmas. And occasionally other times if I'm cashed up and in a good mood.
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Although, um, I think you might be mistaken by classifying this as a rant.
Far too much logic, content, and good examples for it to be a rant. :)
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What I wanted to say was this: traveling on the pt in Melbourne gives you good experience and refines your people watching skills.
Most people don't want the "there's a good doggie" routine, but by golly if someone goes out of their way for you they do 'expect' acknowledgement of at least a thankyou. Case in point while pregnant I always always always thanked people for offering their seat. No, it's not a huge heroic act, but in the context of being exhausted at the end of a working day it meant a lot. It was an opportunity to say - it means a lot, and usually being me, it's an opportunity to underline to all the rude people who didn't offer their seat (cause of course they were guiltily watching) that yes, it was a nice thing to do. (Ok, so I was using courtesy as a means of sticking my finger up at them - I am coloured grey.)
No, it's not a huge deal to say thankyou and to teach other people in the wider community that their deeds are watched. Maybe someone will pass on the thanks that wouldn't normally?
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no subject