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This piece is not about any one person specifically, it's about the way people are demonised in general.I want you to think about the worst thing you've ever done. Something, no matter how long ago you did it, that you're still ashamed of. Don't shy away from it, think hard about the nastiest, shittiest, lowest thing you've ever done to someone.
Now, I want you to imagine people in general, and the internet as a vague group, deciding that's the person you really are.
Think about how they would react, how they would treat you, attack you, the things they would write about you - for a single act. It doesn't matter if it was a mistake, deliberate, or if there were extenuating circumstances - they don't care. There's little to no forgiveness out there, almost every time folks talk about you, it will be in relation to whatever it was you did.
How would that make you feel, as the weeks became months and years, and people still brought it up? How would you feel about the fact that no matter what else you did, there would always be someone there ready to bring up that single bad decision and start the whole thing up again? That every other positive act in your entire life would be deemed unimportant or irrelevant compared to this single event.
I'm not saying there should be universal forgiveness. Some people repeatedly do horrid things to others. I'm not saying there shouldn't be a price to pay for a single error, sometimes we have to make amends. But if the only issue you can find with a person is one really bad thing they've done, then doesn't that suggest there may be more to them than that one act?
Remember this the next time the crowd starts baying for someone's blood over a single mistake, especially if you're part of that crowd. Other people are as complex and have as many layers as you do.
You, and I, are not just the worst thing we ever did.
And neither is anyone else.
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Re: If not this, then what?
"I guess I'm more angry with people equating your post here with what happened to me. It's not a comparable situation."
Also Danny's specific comment about whether that guy should be allowed to attend Swancon was:
"Do I say we should let your assaulter off? No, I say that he can come back when his victim says it's okay - fully expecting that to be never."
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Re: If not this, then what?
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Re: If not this, then what?
Let me clarify, then - my issue is what Danny said, when he said it, and the context in which he started this "discussion".
How about we keep it to that?
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Re: If not this, then what?
logansrogue came into this thread and called Danny out, he clarified his stance, they discussed it and logansrogue's final response was what I just posted. I didn't put her in the middle, she came here of her own volition.
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Re: If not this, then what?
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Re: If not this, then what?
How about we keep it to that?"
Okay, we can do that.
Firstly, since Danny himself is a past victim of sexual assault I think he's more than welcome to speak up about the subject whenever he feels like it, directly or indirectly. If he disagrees with the the majority in some way I think it's even more crucial that he speaks up. The fact that a victim is speaking on behalf of offenders should give everyone pause for thought.
Secondly, I think it's hypocritical of you to post your own "No one's saying anything about this horrible situation so I'm gonna say what I think needs to be said" post and then tear down Danny for making this post which was done with a similar motivation. It's doubly hypocritical for you to make an appeal to the Principle of Charity and then come in here and scream at Danny for what you assume he was implying rather than what he actually said. That's why I felt I had to comment.
"You've told the members of a community that got up and said "this is wrong, and the man that did it isn't welcome in our space any more" that they shouldn't have done it."
Look, I get that Danny's post caused that reaction in you, but I honestly don't think that he was saying anything like that at all.
In fact he's said the exact opposite in several places. He's not asking that the rapist be allowed to go to Swancon this year, he's not asking that we forgive and forget as if nothing ever happened. He's just asking that we consider the greater context of a person's life when we react to an act they've done. He's not telling us what decision to make when we consider that greater context, he's just asking us to make sure we consider it.
Personally I don't know if I'd be capable of that in this context. Two of my girlfriends had been raped before I'd met them, one had never even spoken to anyone else about it and had been trying to deal with it herself for years. I've seen firsthand how it can destroy lives. The thought that someone could do that to my friends or loved ones makes me frantic with anger and helplessness. I really really don't know if I could see such an act in a greater context but if Danny is asking me to try then I'll at least think about whether I could.
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Re: If not this, then what?
What Danny wrote lead to this, and and this, and and this.
And I don't think Danny meant for this to happen, or is ok with it, or isn't horrified at the sentiments expressed.
But this post helped make these responses OK - as I said above.
And before you have a go at the person that said these things I just linked to, read this, and tell me there's no pattern of behaviour here, and we shouldn't have chased that man out of our community.
ETA: minor edit to add a line I meant to type in the first place.
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Re: If not this, then what?
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Re: If not this, then what?
Save it for morning. I'm going to bed.
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Re: If not this, then what?
You can't blame Danny for kowren's posts. It's not like kowren was on your side and Danny changed her mind, and it seems likely that in the current climate kowren would have made a similar post regardless of whatever Danny said.
Maybe it's the fact that kowren keeps namedropping Danny as if he's some sort of supporter that's got you riled up? Again, it's not Danny's fault if kowren has jumped to that conclusion and is trying to push it.
Thirdly, if you're going to go and blame people for the responses that their posts get then you should probably keep in mind that your post back in February was probably one of the catalysts for Danny's current post ...
Uh, I should probably say something else here. Please don't think that I'm pissed off at you. I'm sure Danny would much rather you call him out immediately and directly rather than go and complain about him to other people. You had a problem with Danny and you came right out with it, which was the Right Thing. Much the same as your post back in February was the Right Thing.
I'm pretty much only having this conversation with you because your first reply was left hanging there and no one was touching it. Danny can defend his own beliefs perfectly well but it looks like he's signed off for the night.
I'm a firm believer in getting stuff out in the open and I think it's especially important in this situation because there's a hell of a lot of people upset, in WA and also in the other states. The crime that was committed on logansrogue is affecting a lot of people (which is in no way her fault) and causing a lot of anguish and anger in the community as a whole. The fact that it happened several years ago and is still a major issue shows that the community hasn't come to terms with it yet. Now that we're all discussing it we can let logansrogue know that she has the support and concern of hundreds of people. We can let the rapist know that many many people are still incredibly angry at him and don't want him to attend Swancon. (The fact that he was even considering going shows that this message wasn't getting through to him before.) Even kowren's posts are important in that we now know what's on her mind and we can adjust our opinions of her accordingly.
I think Danny's post was aimed more at eventually healing the community as a whole and dealing with the poison that's been sitting in our guts for the last few years.
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Re: If not this, then what?
logansrogue came into this thread and called Danny out, he clarified his stance, they discussed it and logansrogue's final response was what I just posted. I didn't put her in the middle, she already came here and made her case all on her own.
Oh and fwiw I agreed with your own LJ post about how that guy isn't welcome at Swancon and people should be standing up and saying that out loud rather than dithering about it. If I was involved in WA fandom I probably would've made a very similar post.
I was also a little unsure about Danny's post in relation to that whole thing but if logansrogue is okay with it then that's good enough for me.