Irrelevance to the new fen

[dalekboy]

This post is taken from a bunch of replies on a friend's journal, that it was decided we should stop hijacking and move the discussion somewhere else.

The problem is that a lot of fans want to get along, and many longer term fans don't like change, so the old fans don't change and the new fans try to fit in. The newer folks aren't encouraged to exptress their ideas, and fans have always been good at shouting down those they see as wrong.

I tend to think that when one is well-known and respected in the scene, they have a responsibilty to the newer folks to keep an open mind and to give them the chance to express themselves.

For instance, I have the newer people in Melbourne saying they don't see the point of having fan guests. I disagree with their opinion, but respect and understand that if they feel that way, then many more new folks will as well. So I either need to justify why we do it well enough that they can see my point-of-view, or rethink having fan guests in order to be relevant to the newer folks.

Though that said, I think the fan guest issue is a tiny one compared to how magnificently irrelevant our style of cons currently are to the new crop of fans.

New fans aren't coming to cons. They see them as over-priced, they don't see that they will get any value for money, and when they do come along, they have a hard time making friends because they're shy and because many of us are shy, we're more comfy talking to people we already know.

And then they hear us slagging off 'mundanes' and similarly showing fandom's intolerance for those not like themselves. So to new folks we come across as more exclusive than inclusive.

So discuss... and especially if you're one of the newer fans, please, please, please speak up and tell us what you'd like to see at cons, and what you think needs to be changed.

Comments

[roberthoge.livejournal.com]

Traditional con models are facing a few challenges.

First, fans no longer have to pay to fly to another city and stay at a hotel to find their community - they just have to flick on the internet. When I discovered fandom 20 years ago it was a wonderful revalation because I felt like I'd found 'my people.' Someone who is 15 now, probably got the same feeling the first time they found a mailing list about their favourite subject. They didn't have to pay for the privilege.

Second, con models like SupaNova and GenCon are a real challenge. Imagine you're a 20 year old uni student and you're choosing between spending $150 for a four day con or you could go to a SupaNova and spend $30 to get in and a $100 on stuff - books, dvds, comics, games, whatever - and still come out ahead.

I was impressed that Swancon managed to fit many communities within the one con, which meant gamers felt comfortable as did cos-players and Dr Who fans etc. So I don't think it's that cons are necessarily irrelevant to fans. It's just that they have more options to express their fandom these days.

But fan guests matter. And surely offering a membership to a con (which is no cost to the committee) and paying for a few nights at a hotel won't break the bank. The fans at Swancon added a vibrabcy to the con and even if I didn't interact with all of them, I spoke to some and enjoyed having them there.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I think fan guests absolutely matter, but with Swancon 2008 we didn't include our fan guest on some of our more mainstream advertising - community newspaper ads, postcards, etc.

I think once a new person comes to a convention, things like fan guests can be fairly easily explained, but without really knowing what they are they just become another barrier between the new person and their deciding to try a convention out.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Choosing your fan guest is an interesting problem, too. I was around in the 80s and early 90s, and saw a number of fan guests chosen simply because they were friends of the chair, not because they had done much.

Fan guest should be chosen for their contribution to fandom. The issue you have is when that person, while a great contributor, is really rather dull. Just because someone is more vibrant and out there, it doesn't make them more deserving, but just because someone is quiet, it shouldn't reduce their eligability, especially if they've done tonnes of large-scale work.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

Absolutely.

I also think there's a tendency to invite a fan guest every year, even though a truly worthy candidate may not have presented themselves.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I was thinking that just last night, that in Melbourne the list of people who have genuinely done a lot to benefit fandom is getting shorter.

Two of Continuum's fan guests were people who did tonnes for fandom, but were never going to be recognised for it if we didn't do it. One because he'd always just been there and was taken for granted, and the other because people had issues with him and so ignored all the great work he had done.

There other folks who in this decade have been more visible, but most of them haven't had the fans interests as their top priority.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I know when I was a fan guest, I absolutely felt that I should make a special effort to contribute to the convention more than usual, be more involved and visible.

Though I think this should be interpreted differently and appropriately for the individuals. Fan guests can contribute in lots of ways, by publishing or sharing their passions via the video program, or even just by inspiring others to celebrate their contribution.



(ok, so that was the year of the great nuding up, which might not have been quite the right way to interpret the idea of being more visible around the convention)

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Yep, I've taken my stints as guest seriously, though my last one two years back was where I finally had the confidence to ask for GoH speech. And I worked hard to make that speech count for something. I also put things in the art show, and tried to show that I did actually have some variety to what I did, to show I wasn't just chosen because I was 'popular' or it was 'my turn.'

I know I have seen fan guests that obviously just treated it as a free membership, and that annoyed me.

[fred-mouse.livejournal.com]

It does help if the committee and the fan guest communicate well as to what the fan guest can contribute - without communication, the fan guest may not feel that they have the opportunity to contribute. I'm pretty sure that some of the fan guests that look like they haven't done anything may never have been given the opportunity to do anything. And while it would be nice if they were pro-active about it, not every fan guest is being recognised for that aspect of their contribution to fandom.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

I suppose this decision depends on why you're inviting a fan guest to begin with. If it's to honor someone who has made a contribution to fandom, whether local or on a national or international scale, then imho that person should feature in all of your publicity just like the other guests. Being named in that way is one of the ways you honor the person.

Your publicity is certainly intended to get people to come to the convention but I don't think that means necessarily that you shill the professional writers and eliminate the fan guest from your list because outsiders might not know who they are or what a fan guest is. Instead, my feeling is that your publicity should be including all the things that make your convention what it is, including honoring people within the community.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

It's something we thought about, but to be completely honest putting up a big bit on your postcards and newspaper ads saying "XXX is our Fan Guest" will only serve to throw off and disenfranchise non-fans.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

Do you have evidence for this or is it just a guess on your part? I'm a bit puzzled why this would be such a dealbreaker for someone -- if a potential attendee saw other things in the publicity that were attractive, not sure why this one thing would throw them off. Doesn't seem like that hard a concept. Do you make the same assumption about less well-known writer guests or media guests too?

Sorry to be so inquisitive but I don't think I've seen any other cons do this so I'm trying to understand the reasoning.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

Don't apologise: it's fine to be inquisitive and it's fine to disagree.

A core understanding of marketing is that your market - individuals who you want to give you money for a membership - is always looking for reasons not to do something. So everything in your advertising and publicity that gives them pause, confuses them, alienates them or the like, is an excuse for them to use not to go.

And the very concept of Fan Guest of Honour is alienating. I find it's very difficult to explain to a non-fan without making the fan community sound ridiculously self-important. It's a term they don't understand, and if they don't understand it, it immediately leads to a fear that they won't understand a lot of the convention or even feel unwelcome when they come. And there are many, many people who only ever go to one convention in their life because they feel so aggressively cut out and disenfranchised when they arrive.

Now in a progress report (which are outdated, but that's another argument) or on a website, there's plenty of room to include a FGoH and explain who they are and why they are honoured, but in the very limited time and space you have on an advertisement it justs damages your chances of persuading the market to buy your product.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Damn you for saying it all clearer and better! *grin*

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

You did not answer my question as to whether there was absolute evidence that including the Fan Guest of Honor in publicity is alienating and causes people not to attend a convention that they otherwise might consider attending.

everything in your advertising and publicity that gives them pause, confuses them, alienates them or the like, is an excuse for them to use not to go.

A larger question, of course, is whether such a person would be comfortable at a convention at all if this concept is a dealbreaker for them. If you're trying to make your advertising sound as non-threatening as possible and as non-eccentric as possible, people are going to be in for a real shock when they actually get to the convention and find the more esoteric things that happen there! I would think that honoring a member of the community is one of the least freaky things likely to happen at a convention :->

I find it's very difficult to explain to a non-fan without making the fan community sound ridiculously self-important.

Why is it self-important to honor someone who has contributed to the community that is hosting the convention? If I saw a knitting convention or a folkdancing convention that was honoring someone who had put in a lot of volunteer time and effort to the community, I wouldn't think it was self-important of them. While I realize that not everyone thinks like I do (really, I do realize that), this concept seems so relatively normative that I'm boggled that someone would be confused and alienated by it to the extent that they would turn away from something that otherwise sounded appealing.

Finally, and this is where we really are likely to disagree, I'm not sure it's worth "selling the soul" of the convention and of fandom, so to speak, just to get a few more memberships. I know you will make the argument that we need to get people in and then slowly accustom them to what the community is like, and I largely agree, but this aspect seems to me to be going overboard in accommodating a perceived newbie audience.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Which is fine.

You did not answer my question as to whether there was absolute evidence that including the Fan Guest of Honor in publicity is alienating and causes people not to attend a convention that they otherwise might consider attending.

And unless someone gives me a large amount of money to conduct a professional marketing impact survey on a few thousand people, there's never going to be any. There isn't any evidence that I'm wrong either. What I do have is a fairly good understanding on how marketing does and doesn't work, earned through several years of doing it professionally, and some extensive conversations with people I know or have met who would obviously adore being at an Australian SF con but refuse to try it because they find it deeply unwelcoming to look at.

If you're trying to make your advertising sound as non-threatening as possible and as non-eccentric as possible, people are going to be in for a real shock when they actually get to the convention and find the more esoteric things that happen there!

But once there it can be seen in context and it can be explained to them, just like when you explain a fan guest of honour on a website. If you have time, it makes sense and most new fans are cool with it - even rapidly embrace it. But if you've got 10cm x 7cm to play with, including "Fan Guest of Honour" and a name doesn't add anything.

Why is it self-important to honor someone who has contributed to the community that is hosting the convention?

It's not. I never said it was. I said it looks like that if you don't know what it is.

Finally, and this is where we really are likely to disagree, I'm not sure it's worth "selling the soul" of the convention and of fandom, so to speak, just to get a few more memberships.

It's not ever "selling your soul" to market something properly. It never is. People hear marketing and alarm bells go off, and they shouldn't.

A science fiction convention exists for no other purpose than to facilitate the group appreciation of science fiction, and if it does not market itself in a fashion to attract all readers of science fiction, it is not doing its job and is wasting everyone's time.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

A science fiction convention exists for no other purpose than to facilitate the group appreciation of science fiction, and if it does not market itself in a fashion to attract all readers of science fiction, it is not doing its job and is wasting everyone's time.

Well, turns out I was right that this was really where we were likely to disagree :->

I think a science fiction convention exists so that a community of people who like science fiction in all its forms can get together in a common place for the weekend. I think that the *community* aspect is important. I welcome and encourage new people to join the community, but I also think that they should realize that in attending a convention, that's what they're doing, at least for a weekend.

The for-profit convention model where people buy tickets to be the audience and listen to the people on the program to me is not the same thing as a fannish convention, at which everyone can potentially be in the audience or up on a panel.

I definitely think that we should keep the inside jokes and cliquiness at conventions to a minimum and I usually strive when I'm on a panel to make sure that the terms we use are clear to the audience. But at the same time, I don't want to see us jettison the things that make us fans and not just readers or viewers of science fiction. A fannish convention is more than just an academic appreciation of science fiction, and not all readers of science fiction are going to be happy at one.

I think the more that we indicate exactly what our conventions are like, the happier people will be at them. And if there's a term or concept that we know puzzles or alienates people, I guess I'd tend more to trying to clarify or explain it than hide it.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I keep getting the impression you think I want to change SF conventions, when in truth all I want to do is see people market them properly.

[lie-xin.livejournal.com]

Just wondering: did you get to any of the academic program this year?

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

Some of the feedback we got on the Continuums from first-timers and the new generation of fans alike suggested they felt that Fan Guest is little more than an "in-joke". That ousiders viewed it as something they were paying for that they didn't understand or appreciate.

These days there's a real push for value for money. Even if the punters don't like one of the guests, they will look at a pro as bang for their buck.

They look at a fan guest as something they're paying for that they don't want. This coupled with the fact that only people in the fan community will likely know the guest and their achievements, using the advertising space on flyers aimed at the general public can be seen as counter-productive.

and, to be brutally honest, once they've paid, it's too late for them to have second thoughts based solely on finding out about a non-pro as guest.

I don't agree with it, I believe in naming all the guests on a flyer, and that it's part of honouring the fan guest. But cons have to work as a business first, and maximise their appeal to the general public, hence me not fighting the decision when it was suggested.

Certainly, if I was made fan guest at a con, I wouldn't expect my name on the non-fandom advertising. I'm not a draw-card and the sapce is better used pushing those people and events that may draw in a new first timer.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

Interesting. Thanks for providing anecdotal evidence, not that I didn't believe angriest.

I guess I just have a problem with saying that advertising should only include things that are likely to draw a newcomer. I think it should certainly include things that are likely to attract a newcomer, but I'm not sure I'd go all the way in the other direction and eliminate things that are standard convention features in order to woo them.

I'm curious as to whether this logic is applied to professional guests as well. People who are not devotees of Dr Who, for example, might not have ever heard of Rob Shearman. Does that mean that a con wouldn't mention that he was a guest in some publicity drives?

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I don't remember if we did it, but we certainly talked about focused advertising for the Continuums.

So if our guests were a DW author, and an SF writer, when advertising them we would make the DW author the first and most prominent name when advertising in the DW and media community, and make the SF author more prominent when advertising to the more heavily lit-based community.

Three out of four Continuums had feedback forms, which really helped us shape our direction and find out what people wanted... and it also helped us to ignore the whingers :)

[angriest.livejournal.com]

In Rob's case I was making a concerted effort to constantly refer to him as "Rob Shearman, writer for TV's Doctor Who" or somesuch, because the average SF reader may or may not have heard of Ken Macleod or Glenda Larke, but *everybody* has heard of Doctor Who.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Imagine you're a 20 year old uni student and you're choosing between spending $150 for a four day con or you could go to a SupaNova and spend $30 to get in and a $100 on stuff - books, dvds, comics, games, whatever

The competition is mostly illusory, unless they are very close together (and two similar cons close together would also be an issue). If you would seriously be choosing between the two because they both interest you, then if they more than a month apart you are likely to go to both. Supanova is more of an opportunity (a place to promote and recruit from) than it is a challenge.

[cumbernotathome.livejournal.com]

Not so. I know people who approach cons by saying "I can only afford to go to one convention this year, so which one will I go to this year?"

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

And so do I, which makes perfect sense if you convention going involves travel, accomodation, and a fairly large entry price. But I think a $30 gate show ticket is a different story.

On the whole, I think the opportunity provided by Supernova is larger than the threat. We are better off embracing the opportunity rather than panicking about the threat - maybe a few people will choose between the two and choose Supernova, but the number of people that find out about us and start attending should be larger.