Irrelevance to the new fen

[dalekboy]

This post is taken from a bunch of replies on a friend's journal, that it was decided we should stop hijacking and move the discussion somewhere else.

The problem is that a lot of fans want to get along, and many longer term fans don't like change, so the old fans don't change and the new fans try to fit in. The newer folks aren't encouraged to exptress their ideas, and fans have always been good at shouting down those they see as wrong.

I tend to think that when one is well-known and respected in the scene, they have a responsibilty to the newer folks to keep an open mind and to give them the chance to express themselves.

For instance, I have the newer people in Melbourne saying they don't see the point of having fan guests. I disagree with their opinion, but respect and understand that if they feel that way, then many more new folks will as well. So I either need to justify why we do it well enough that they can see my point-of-view, or rethink having fan guests in order to be relevant to the newer folks.

Though that said, I think the fan guest issue is a tiny one compared to how magnificently irrelevant our style of cons currently are to the new crop of fans.

New fans aren't coming to cons. They see them as over-priced, they don't see that they will get any value for money, and when they do come along, they have a hard time making friends because they're shy and because many of us are shy, we're more comfy talking to people we already know.

And then they hear us slagging off 'mundanes' and similarly showing fandom's intolerance for those not like themselves. So to new folks we come across as more exclusive than inclusive.

So discuss... and especially if you're one of the newer fans, please, please, please speak up and tell us what you'd like to see at cons, and what you think needs to be changed.

Comments

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I suspect we're going to have to agree to disagree on this one.

Which is fine.

You did not answer my question as to whether there was absolute evidence that including the Fan Guest of Honor in publicity is alienating and causes people not to attend a convention that they otherwise might consider attending.

And unless someone gives me a large amount of money to conduct a professional marketing impact survey on a few thousand people, there's never going to be any. There isn't any evidence that I'm wrong either. What I do have is a fairly good understanding on how marketing does and doesn't work, earned through several years of doing it professionally, and some extensive conversations with people I know or have met who would obviously adore being at an Australian SF con but refuse to try it because they find it deeply unwelcoming to look at.

If you're trying to make your advertising sound as non-threatening as possible and as non-eccentric as possible, people are going to be in for a real shock when they actually get to the convention and find the more esoteric things that happen there!

But once there it can be seen in context and it can be explained to them, just like when you explain a fan guest of honour on a website. If you have time, it makes sense and most new fans are cool with it - even rapidly embrace it. But if you've got 10cm x 7cm to play with, including "Fan Guest of Honour" and a name doesn't add anything.

Why is it self-important to honor someone who has contributed to the community that is hosting the convention?

It's not. I never said it was. I said it looks like that if you don't know what it is.

Finally, and this is where we really are likely to disagree, I'm not sure it's worth "selling the soul" of the convention and of fandom, so to speak, just to get a few more memberships.

It's not ever "selling your soul" to market something properly. It never is. People hear marketing and alarm bells go off, and they shouldn't.

A science fiction convention exists for no other purpose than to facilitate the group appreciation of science fiction, and if it does not market itself in a fashion to attract all readers of science fiction, it is not doing its job and is wasting everyone's time.

[dalekboy.livejournal.com]

I don't remember if we did it, but we certainly talked about focused advertising for the Continuums.

So if our guests were a DW author, and an SF writer, when advertising them we would make the DW author the first and most prominent name when advertising in the DW and media community, and make the SF author more prominent when advertising to the more heavily lit-based community.

Three out of four Continuums had feedback forms, which really helped us shape our direction and find out what people wanted... and it also helped us to ignore the whingers :)

[angriest.livejournal.com]

In Rob's case I was making a concerted effort to constantly refer to him as "Rob Shearman, writer for TV's Doctor Who" or somesuch, because the average SF reader may or may not have heard of Ken Macleod or Glenda Larke, but *everybody* has heard of Doctor Who.

[mireille21.livejournal.com]

I think Fan Guests are still relevant. It's about *that* person getting recognised for their contribution to fandom. The new fans may not know them, but in years to come they may have friends they have known for ages whom they want to see recognised.

At any convention there is plenty of stuff that is not relevant to me, so I just focus on hte stuff that is relevant to me and gloss over the rest. If the FGOH isn't of any interest to you, then just ignore it, saying you should get rid of the FGOH is proabbly not necessary.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

A science fiction convention exists for no other purpose than to facilitate the group appreciation of science fiction, and if it does not market itself in a fashion to attract all readers of science fiction, it is not doing its job and is wasting everyone's time.

Well, turns out I was right that this was really where we were likely to disagree :->

I think a science fiction convention exists so that a community of people who like science fiction in all its forms can get together in a common place for the weekend. I think that the *community* aspect is important. I welcome and encourage new people to join the community, but I also think that they should realize that in attending a convention, that's what they're doing, at least for a weekend.

The for-profit convention model where people buy tickets to be the audience and listen to the people on the program to me is not the same thing as a fannish convention, at which everyone can potentially be in the audience or up on a panel.

I definitely think that we should keep the inside jokes and cliquiness at conventions to a minimum and I usually strive when I'm on a panel to make sure that the terms we use are clear to the audience. But at the same time, I don't want to see us jettison the things that make us fans and not just readers or viewers of science fiction. A fannish convention is more than just an academic appreciation of science fiction, and not all readers of science fiction are going to be happy at one.

I think the more that we indicate exactly what our conventions are like, the happier people will be at them. And if there's a term or concept that we know puzzles or alienates people, I guess I'd tend more to trying to clarify or explain it than hide it.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

I keep getting the impression you think I want to change SF conventions, when in truth all I want to do is see people market them properly.

The Mundanes issue

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I've heard FAR more hand-wringing about this issue than I have actual issues. You hate it, a few other people hate it -- but I'm unconvinced its a big deal.

Actually, DragonCon, the canonical example of a huge, popular, new fandom event, completely embraces the idea of fans being 'freaks' and 'freaking the mundanes', going out of its way to parade through the streets of the town in costume etc. Given the prevalence of cosplay in younger fandom, I can see the attitude getting a resurgence.

Seriously, I find this particular attitude annoying myself when its in a self-conscious, defensive, way -- but I don't actually think that attitude is the problem with attracting younger fans to fandom, or even with bringing people into fandom at all. The people that are likely to be serious recruits to fandom are the people who are attracted to it being weird looking, even self-consciously.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I agree with this point about the term - you need a term for non-fans, its a natural human impulse to come up with a slang term for it, and terms like 'mundanes' get used for practical reasons rather than to exclude mostly.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

I don't think you want to change them. But when you say "market them properly," you seem to be wanting at least in part to attract an audience that doesn't understand them and might be expecting something different than what they're going to get.

I think that marketing a convention properly means letting people know that the convention is occurring, what's likely to happen there, and what guests or other notable attendees are likely to be there. If you're marketing to a specific niche market, then I can see emphasizing some things (Rob Shearman to a media market, Ken McLeod to a bookstore). However, if you're marketing the convention to a general audience, I think that all convention aspects should be in the marketing.

I certainly want the convention to make back its costs and maybe have a bit extra (to donate to the fan funds, say :-> ). I also think that we should be trying to find new people who will enjoy our conventions and the things that make us fans. But I don't think that their being unfamiliar with some of our traditions, like honoring a fan as fan guest of honor, should mean that we hide those aspects to make it possibly more palatable to them.

Finally, as I said previously, my view is that choosing a fan guest of honor means not just paying their expenses and putting them on panels and in publications at the con, but also letting the world know that you are doing so.

[lie-xin.livejournal.com]

Just wondering: did you get to any of the academic program this year?

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I find it odd that people are acting as if Swancons and similar cons are in crisis. They are doing about as well at attracting new fans as they always have, and could probably do a lot better just by doing exactly what they have done all along and publicising it better.

Of course, the numbers of attendees at both media sf gate shows and anime cons are far larger - but that doesn't mean swancon is necessarily doing anything wrong.

I don't think Swancons etc need to change fundamentally. They do need to incorporate new ideas, promote themselves better, and evaluate the different kinds of activities offered - but mostly this just constitutes doing what they have always done better and more up to date, rather than radically changing the nature of the event (as I believe it would have to to attract a big percentage of the anime con audience). Of course, there will be disagreements between the conservatives and the innovators, but there always have been.

[angriest.livejournal.com]

But when you say "market them properly," you seem to be wanting at least in part to attract an audience that doesn't understand them and might be expecting something different than what they're going to get.

Let's look at this abstractly for a second:

Let's say we're trying to sell Coke. Which of the following do you think is likely to sell more cans of Coke?

1.) Coke is a carbonated beverage containing mostly water and sugar, but also contains colour 150D, food acid 338, flavour and caffeine.

2.) "Coca-Cola: Life Tastes Good" (which was the 2001 Coca-Cola slogan)

Now everyone who drinks Coke because they like it are still going to drink Coke no matter how you market it, but people who have never tried Coke are going to get a lot more intrigued by the second slogan accompanied by shots of people having fun on a beach than they are by the ingredients list. And if they drink it and like it, they'll keep drinking it. And if they don't like it, they'll drink Pepsi.

I am not changing conventions in broad strokes, I am trying to push them more open to new people. It's very frustrating to constantly see people decrying the lack of new people in SF fandom when at the same time they're beating away new people with sticks.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

Imagine you're a 20 year old uni student and you're choosing between spending $150 for a four day con or you could go to a SupaNova and spend $30 to get in and a $100 on stuff - books, dvds, comics, games, whatever

The competition is mostly illusory, unless they are very close together (and two similar cons close together would also be an issue). If you would seriously be choosing between the two because they both interest you, then if they more than a month apart you are likely to go to both. Supanova is more of an opportunity (a place to promote and recruit from) than it is a challenge.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

I know when I was a fan guest, I absolutely felt that I should make a special effort to contribute to the convention more than usual, be more involved and visible.

Though I think this should be interpreted differently and appropriately for the individuals. Fan guests can contribute in lots of ways, by publishing or sharing their passions via the video program, or even just by inspiring others to celebrate their contribution.



(ok, so that was the year of the great nuding up, which might not have been quite the right way to interpret the idea of being more visible around the convention)

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

you seem to be wanting at least in part to attract an audience that doesn't understand them

Yes. You don't understand conventions until you have been to one. We wish to attract people who haven't been to conventions, and therefore don't understand them, but will like them when they do.

[crankynick.livejournal.com]

So, let me put an alternative point of view:

Why the fuck should we care?

What is the obsession with forever expanding the 'fan base' and Con attendance? Why the fuck does every con need to be bigger, and why is size ANY kind of measure of how successful a con is?

I go to cons to sit around and talk shit with my friends, many of whom I only see once a year, at SwanCon - given that I only went to half of one panel, you could probably argue that I spent $150 for the privilege of sitting in a bar with my mates. So what? My call.

Like any other social event, I'm under no more obligation to be 'less cliquey' or more welcoming of new fans than I am sitting down the pub with my friends, or at any other group social event. It's good to meet new people, and maybe I have some new friends from this con, but neither I nor anyone else at the con should feel any obligation to be nice to every random stranger that walks up to them and starts a conversation.

There are a bunch of people there every year that I don't want to talk to, and don't want to talk to me. And that's OK too - people are under no more obligation to be nice to me at cons than they would be to any other brash arrogant bloke trying to be funny down at their local.

And con committee's only obligation is to attract enough people to make their budget and pay the bills - and, despite steeply rising venue prices in Perth, I'm not aware that there's been any serious danger of a committee failing to do that over here in some years.

I'm in favour of cons changing over time, and I quite like the sound of a lot of the suggestions cheshirenoir (and others) made earlier in the thread - but changes in programming and focus will occur when they're needed, and when a group of people have the drive and energy to make them happen.

If the current model isn't as appealing as it used to be, it will change - or die.

But I think it's a touch disingenuous, not to mention pointless, to say that it will only all be OK if we were nice to people for a change.

And another thing...

[crankynick.livejournal.com]

Plus, I think this image of a lonely new fan walking into a con looking to make friends is largely some kind of rescue fantasy.

My experience, inside and outside of the fan community, is that people generally only enter a new social situation in the secure company of existing friends.

People start coming to cons as a group, basically.

Maybe that's starting to change as cons become the venue for online meetups - but even people doing that are meeting with an existing community or group of friends. The only real issue for them is finding them.

Re: And another thing...

[callistra.livejournal.com]

I think you're right. People don't come to cons to meet new friends - not that they would admit it, even if they did. I asked some new people this year. One girl was there for her dr8 in fantasy. Her boyfriend was there because she dragged him. Other people were giving a paper, or attending for a friend's panel. New people come because of a specific thing - a person, a panel, some thing, not because we're a lovely buncha coconuts.

And I agree we should be putting more effort into finding groups that already meet up and co-opting them if we want to expand our customer base.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

Coke is going to be Coke no matter what you call it or how you market it, and people who see soda in a can or bottle are going to be getting soda. If you're marketing specifically to niche markets as I gather you do, people who know about a convention only that it features a media guest of honor and or only that it will have an academic track or only that it will have a famous writer as a guest will not necessarily know what they're getting when they actually show up.

I am not changing conventions in broad strokes, I am trying to push them more open to new people.

I never said you were and agreed that you weren't in my last message. I'm also not suggesting that we emphasize fannish in-jokes and things that people might not be familiar with when trying to sell them a convention. However, what I'm trying to grapple with is the specific instance of not mentioning someone you're supposedly honoring because some people might not understand the terminology you're using. If you really feel that the concept is strange and offputting and won't be welcome by your target audience, then I personally would rather see you drop the whole idea than make the honor incomplete in case some people get offended or put off by it.

It's very frustrating to constantly see people decrying the lack of new people in SF fandom when at the same time they're beating away new people with sticks.

I guess I fail to see where mentioning the Fan Guest of Honor as one of your guests, possibly with an explanation or possibly without, is beating away new people with sticks. And as someone who has gone out of her way to try to make new people feel welcome -- encouraging the existence of and participating in "Conventions 101" panels, meeting with different writer fan groups to bring them into the fold, making sure whenever I'm on a panel that we explain whatever terms we're using that people might not be familiar with, etc. -- I kind of resent being put in that category.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

We wish to attract people who haven't been to conventions, and therefore don't understand them, but will like them when they do.

As do all con runners. But obviously you don't think they'll like certain aspects of them because you're deliberately not mentioning those.

As I said to angriest, perhaps it makes more sense just not to have a Fan Guest of Honor if you think that your potential audience would be disturbed by one rather than not letting it be known that you're honoring the person except on the spot.

[rwrylsin.livejournal.com]

Can't argue with that. I went to my first SF con looking for SF - found what appeared to be plenty of it, but was left underwhelmed with the distinct impression that the panellists didn't really want to be there and were mostly more interested in just having a captive audience. Probably wouldn't have gone back if left to my own devices.

So I don't think it's enough to just be generally about SF, it needs to well presented. Not to malign panels entirely, there are good ones, but as newcomer especially it's very off-putting when faced with;

"Flying Cars!"
"Won't work." *stomp*
"But what if we did it anyway!"
We discussed that in the bar 3 cons ago. Bored now. Let's tell amusing driving anecdotes instead.

It would probably be fair to say that as an experienced fan, I've retreated to the non-SF fringe largely because that's where the quality is most reliably found. It's only there because someone with a passion volunteered, they know their stuff, have opinions and generally seem delighted to be able to share something with you.

No idea what the solution is without lots more keen volunteers, particularly since I have no idea how programmes are put together.
A few panels at Orbital last weekend benefited from having started life as an online argument, and then the participants were told by the con committee that this was now a programme item and they were on it.

[nicked-metal.livejournal.com]

RPG cons are typically held in schools, we book the school out for a weekend or long weekend during the school holidays, giving us heaps of room at an affordable rate. Sponsorship levels vary from 'pitiful' to 'completely absent'. Some conventions will charge retailers a couple of hundred dollars to set up a stall for the weekend, others consider having retailers present a service to the community and don't charge for it. Massive amounts of volunteer labour are contributed - I wrote one of the events, and spent $100 on printing, and still had to spend $50 for entry (yes, I'm aware of the irony when it comes to complaining about $150).

Conquest setup took place on the evening of Easter Thursday, registration opened Friday morning, and the awards were presented Monday evening. Diehards like myself were there for more than 12 hours every day.

International speakers are quite rare, but we occasionally get someone who is promoting something with an Australian tour. It's more a chance for players to connect and play games than anything else, so the draw-value of international speakers is relatively low.

Re: And another thing...

[davidcook.livejournal.com]

I agree, I found that I needed to make friends outside of the Con environment before I really started getting the most out of a Con.
rwrylsin and I have seen this twice, when we moved to Melbourne, and then when we moved to Glasgow - our first con after each move was basically spent hanging around with each other and doing random program items.
Once we joined the MSFC in Melbourne, or found the local fen in Glasgow, we started getting more fun out of cons.

[strangedave.livejournal.com]

But obviously you don't think they'll like certain aspects of them because you're deliberately not mentioning those.

No, I think they don't know what they are yet, so there is no point in using it in advertising. I think they'll like them once they know what they are -- but the best way for them to find out is by getting them to the convention.

I've been to Burning Man a couple of times. One of the most profound and memorable parts of that experience is the Sunday night Temple Burn. Trying to briefly explain why to people who have not attended would be nonsensical or confusing ("well, we all sit around in silence for a while, and then we go away. No, its not religious, even though its called a temple. Yeah, nothing much happens really, a thing gets burned but it's comparitively unspectacular."), but its at the heart of the whole experience. Is that I should use to sell outsiders on the event?

Something near the heart of the experience that requires significant explanation isn't necessarily what you use in advertising to outsiders with limited knowledge and a casual interest -- and this in no way detracts from the value of that aspect, or its importance to insiders.

Even something as big as a Swancon (let alone something as big as a worldcon) has enough going on that trying to communicate it all in a single poster or flyer (which your potential audience will scan in seconds) is impossible. You pick and choose those items you tell them about, and you concentrate on those items that will be immediately meaningful and attractive to your chosen audience (and fan guest is not immediately understood by non-fans).

if you think that your potential audience would be disturbed by one
Actually, I think the majority of the potential audience knows what a fan guest is, and is pretty happy about it. But we were talking specifically about advertising to a specific subset of the potential attendees, that being first time attendees that we wish to bring in to the convention purely by advertising/marketing. The map is not the territory, the flyer is not the convention.

[smofbabe.livejournal.com]

But we were talking specifically about advertising to a specific subset of the potential attendees, that being first time attendees that we wish to bring in to the convention purely by advertising/marketing.

I'm not sure how you could know that your publicity was only being seen by potential new attendees so my impression was that no advertising mentioned the Fan GoH in order not to confuse or alienate new people.

I've hijacked this thread long enough so I'll stop here. Apologies if I've annoyed or offended anyone.